06/11/2020 - Feedback Requests - Combat

[Xsyon]

Well, with conflicting feedback such as this I will wait for feedback from other players and possibly run a poll if necessary.

A few comments:

1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.

2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.

3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.

5) Question for Static: When you mention a Power Attack, how would that be triggered if not by a hot key (or clicking an icon)?
Would it require a specific combination of mouse actions or something else?

Thanks

[MrDDT]

1) I can adjust parrying as suggested.

Currently not noticing a change.
Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.



[QUOTE=Xsyon;106031]
2) Most players coming to Xsyon are expecting combat like in other 'survival sandbox' games, like Rust, Ark, 7 Days To Die. From what I've seen in those games, melee combat is simply mouse clicking to attack without any special attacks or defenses. I haven't played any of these games in depth however. This simple type of combat seems to be the more current type of combat that players expect. If I am wrong, let me know what I am missing. If there are popular 'survival sandbox' games that employ different types of melee combat, please let me know.[.quote]

You're assessment of them is correct.

3) I'm fine with WoW style combat. Two specific things I didn't like about WoW melee combat are the auto attacking regular attacks and that there are too many similar special hot key attacks. Similar combat with the manual normal attacks and a few special attacks would be nice in my opinion.

Exactly how I feel.

4) I am also fine with twitch style combat. However, there are some issues. As MrDDT said, because of various ping rates from players around the world, perfect synchronization is not possible. Synch is a lot better than before and that enables me to move forward with ranged combat. I will not be able to match the level of synchronization of solo games or games that run small local servers. As I don't personally play any combat focused games I'm not very familiar with them and this makes it difficult for me to code, though I try my best. I did play Mount and Blade a bit and that type of combat is very difficult for me to mimic, especially without a proper animator.

Exactly.
You would also want to give the visual cues to players also of what is going on. So they can dodge or defend it. Like in Mount and Blade, you can do a counter parry block. You need to be in the right direction, you see to see they are going to parry your attack, and then you counter it. Not only does this take very fast pings to see because all of this is happening in 1s or less. You also need to be able to see by visual cues this is going on. If you make it just guess work, then all skillful play is lost.

[Static]

Modeling your melee combat after rust I think isn't very wise either since the game is a first person shooter, your supposed to have a gun, not melee weapons.

Melee weapons are a 2ndary thought in rust, again, its a first person shooter sandbox, not a melee sandbox like xsyon.

Again the most close game to compare would be mount n blade imo, while combat is currently coded to be as complex as kingdom come delverance with the multi directionals... Honestly if we can mix the multi directional with a dark souls style combat than we would have a extremely fun combat game to play.

[Static]

Why I keep bring'n up kingdom come delverance is cuz they do a really good job with following through with attacks.

Meaning your swings are not fast or instant, different attacks have different swing speeds. Like your sword jab is going to be alot faster than a swing'n hit from the side, but it also does alot less damage. This should more or less be the goal here, you have slower, more powerful attack that someone can move out of the way of more easily and than counter hit you more easily after with.

The speed of the attacks makes the combat work, since players are stuck with the follow through of their swing if they miss, plus the start of the swing gives away what direction the combat is coming from so you can parry from that direction.

[Xsyon]

Currently not noticing a change.

Yup, I haven't patched a change yet. I'll post when I have.

Also parry is random coming from animal attacks with no cues on which way its really coming. An animal attacking with its right paw and you parry left does not make it parry do 100% parry. So the cues the animal is attacking is total guesswork on parry defense.

Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?

Thanks

[MrDDT]

Do you have any suggestions for visual clues? Slowing down the animations?

What do other games do? Are there any games that you know of with directional parry where you can gauge the direction of incoming attacks?

I guess in Mount & Blade you can gauge the attack direction because attacks are slower? Or synchronized better? (In fast combat even a 1/4 second delay is noticeable, I believe, 1/2 second for sure). Or are the animations more exaggerated?

Games like Mount & Blade of course but this is not an MMO.
M&B is very fast action. With chamber blocks (where you block with the weapon mid swing sorta like a parry), parry, block, dodge. This is the closest game I can think of where it has combat as Static is talking about. I think this combat is very very good, high player skill evolved. Which is why it's one of the best melee combat systems.
Slowing down animations for Xsyon (because its an MMO) would be required as in M&B like you said even 1/4 second (250ms) is highly noticeable. Actions are taking place in 100ms to 200ms. You have to see someone is attacking, direction, and type of attack. Then think of which type of counter you can do, and have the time left to animate it. You kill other player/npcs in 1 to 6 hits.


Take this with a grain of salt. Another way is heavy visual cues like in Tera.
Here you have dodge by double tapping, or using a special key to trigger you to get out of the way extra fast, or just move if enough time. (Like Xsyon currently)
They also have skills that parry and shield blocks. If you watch a video on it, you can see the monsters are a lot more of a big battle type fight.
This would require a lot less PING issues as it's a lot more scripted in what monsters/animals are doing.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/323370/TERA/


There are other games, but these are the 2 basic systems in this type of combat. M&B is a standard on that type, and Tera for MMO's is another type.

[Static]

Like you have no hope in hell of ever competing with WoW so why even try?

Why not make something better instead of a WoW clone if you know theres no way you could compete with them?

Like you won't add NPC's, theres no quests, there no cities, there no world to explore or guilds to join or raids to join or any of the stuff that acutally makes WoW fun... but you think just adding WoW combat is going to let you compete with them? I heavily disagree.

[Static]

While I will do my best to improve combat, I don't intend to make Xsyon a combat focused game. It's meant to be sandbox adventure and creation game. It attracts survival sandbox players primarily, which I why I asked for feedback on what that crowd of players is accustomed to. Combat is just a part of the game.

I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.

Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.

I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.

Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"

Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.

Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.

[MrDDT]

I gotta address this again cuz its amazing to me how out of touch you are with what your player base wants on PvP and why they are quitting due to these features not being in place.

I do not think that Mount and Blade style of combat is why PVP is not popular. First, PVP is always less popular. Second, the main reason by far is just the lack of support for PVP objectives.
King of the Hill.
Ranking Sytem.
Area Conquest/Control.
Objective based PVP.

That's why games like Rust/Conan Exiles etc can get away with pretty basic PVP because it doesn't have to be extremely skillful PVP to have PVPers wanting to play.
There is also a major limiting factor. PING and Server CPU power. The more you add in where actions are skillful and you need to make choices in a fraction of a second. Which is the style of skillful PVP you are wanting (which I agree is fun), you limit who can play. The server is based in Dallas, TX. Thus you are making anyone outside the USA at a major skillful PVP disadvantage.

Xsyon has already a major thing that many of the PVPer want. Full Loot. But after that there is zero PVP systems. There isn't even a reason to fight.

Combat is part of the game, yes, but on a PVP server it needs to be more than a back burned after thought, thats what adding skill spam is, a after thought, what someone too lazy to do it properly would do cuz its the easist thing to do, yet the most unfun thing to do. Your creating a easily coded combat system that everybody I know who has complained about combat would NOT enjoy.

I agree with PVP server back burner. But not because of the combat system of attacks. Oddly enough, you already have directional PVP, no one EVER EVER uses it. The reason is, its not effective because it's too hard to do with any type of lag. Try it. Fight a friend in PVP (test server if you want). Have your friend attack you and you try to parry the attacks. You have to skillfuly figure out which direction they are attacking, then choose that parry direction. You will parry the attack 100%. They will lose the stamina for attacking. Plus they will be stunned for 2s. You have to do this in .9s to 1.6s based on the type of attacks currently in Xsyon. So the system you are asking for is currently (mostly) put into the game.

I'll say that again, if you added WoW style combat to the game, it would NOT solve any of the peoples problems that I know of who have quit the game, they would still quit the game with WoW style combat since its not solving their "combat is broken" problem.

I disagree, a lot of people find combat boring. 1) Creatures are very basic and easy. 2) There is only 1 click attack options. There is no special skills or planning. With the new parry system it helps a little. Dodge is not bad, but gets me dizzy.

Again the reason "combat feels broken" is due to how the creatures and players interact with each other or even players vs players, not cuz of a "lack of spamable hotcue skills for extra damage"
Things like there only being one attack from the creature feels really really bad, focusing on spamable skills for a player BEFORE this would be foolish cuz you would be "solving" a non-problem in response to a real problem thats not being solved; how lifeless animals are to fight and how little options you have to actually fight them due to that.

We agree here mostly, but you are focusing on "extra damage" if extra damage was the only thing added. I would agree with you.
But what about options like "Spin Attack" where you can attack in 360 direction all at the same move. Or a "Lunge" attack giving you more reach. Or bleed, snare, other debuffs. I mean I can think of dozens of things outside of just extra damage.

Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).

Combat is boring cuz its repetative, you repeat the same actions till it dies.. thats why I've been trying to get you to understand that creatures need multiple different attacks in order to give some variarity so that your not always defending the same way or using the same action to avoid damage, there needs to be a change, so your forced to do something else, make the combat interactive instead of just a spamfest.

NOBODY wants to play spamfest combat when you just repeat the same thing, adding "hotcue skill spam" does NOT address this core issue.

Adding hotkeys does address this. It allows for more choice in comabt, it gives effects, it is more interactive. I fully agree the spamfest of combat we have now (or even with the click wait 2 seconds attack of charged combat moves) is very boring.

Look I can name dozens of games that are high skill and use hotkeys for special attacks. Darkfall Online is likely the most skillful PVP combat I've ever seen. They have hotkeys for special attacks.
I really think because of ping and CPU server, it's so much better to not worry about tying a combat system to who can react in 100ms or not. The games that use that type of system are not MMO's they are server based games where they highly limit the number of people per server and the servers are regional based.

Hotkeys does not make a game WOW. WOW is a themepark. It has a lot of rails that force you down a path or story. Xsyon is not like that, it wouldn't be like that even with hotkeys.
Player building, quests, no classes, massive skill system, no armor sets required to wear for you. Plus many other things. Hotkeys do not make a game WOW clones.
Xsyon is nothing like WOW.
That would be like saying WOW has a chat system, so does Xsyon thus it's just like WOW.

Which BTW WOW is not a bad game. I do not want Xsyon to be a WOW type game.
Like Xsyon did with color coding items based on rarity. That is a WOW system also. Nothing wrong with using a system that works as long as you don't lose the main direction of a sandbox, player driven content game.

[Static]

Why does combat feel broken? I think a big part as you agree is that creatures are just very basic. They swing to attack. Nothing else. Lets give them special skills too. Ones that players can see (like he has added with bears standing up for a special attack).

Are you dense? You think that you can "fix combat" by just giving some spam skills?

That won't solve a damn thing, combat would not change, you would just have more skills to spam in the already bad system.... How this solves the rest of the HUGE GAPING PROBLEMS by adding spam skills is beyond me, I can't understand your logic at all and I feel like your the reason why this game hasn't evolved in ten years.

If WoW combat was the way to solve this game's problems, than why didn't it work for any other dead/failed game that tried it?

Theres DOZENS if not more failed MMO's with this type of combat, what do you think xsyon is going to do better without npcs, dungeons, raids, guild battles or anything else that makes you IGNORE the unfun combat to experience a fun part of the game?

There isn't any fun parts of teh game in xsyon aside of those you make yourself, so combat itself needs to be fun.

Dark souls, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Mount & blade, COMBAT ITSELF is fun.

Yes, there is other things going on in the game that are fun too, but the MAIN REASON people play these games is FOR THE COMBAT.

Now am I saying xsyon should be only for the combat? No. I'm saying you have building done already, you have farming done already, you have scavenge done already, there is already multiple other aspects to the game COMPLETED. So its "ALREADY" more than "just a combat game". To say that cuz there is other parts of the game, that you should ignore combat and throw it under the bus cuz its not a main focus feels like a cop out to me "lets not make combat great so people can focus on the other parts of the game" ? is that really your stance? Cuz if it is, your throwing half or more of your pvp population under the bus due to how out of touch you are with what people want on pvp being different than what people want on pve.

Pvp players play pvp games.

If you BOTH don't play combat pvp games than you BOTH are NOT the target market, so why argue with me if "I" am the target market since I play pvp and combat focused games?

If you BOTH don't like combat, you BOTH can play PvE where combat is not a thing. PvP the combat SHOULD be the main focus, cuz anything wrong with combat is going to stick out like a SORE THUMB to any combat/pvp minded players who join pvp server, they are going to have expectations, standards that are not met by the game currently that you seem to be unaware of.