best of the best of the best of the best

[VeryWiiTee]

Patience. Players are very impatient when they are paying for a product. You pay money, you expect a service to be delivered to a certain level. When it isn't a) first you get upset and try to get the service delivered that was promised and b) when it isn't you simply elect to spend your money elsewhere. If we didn't pay for something you'd have a valid point....but we did, so you don't.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.
Again this is 100% wrong. In the other thread in the Barracks forum, we are asking...begging even... PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOUR INTENT IS. The core problem with this development is the vagueness...we have enough information to see what we want to in the game, but everybody sees something different. We just need to be told what the deal is, what the intent is, so we can get on to helping it work, or get on to getting the f!@# out.

But the thing is. You're not even paying. You paid the normal amount of money for the game and can now enjoy an online world free for the time being.
You're asking about intents? Since when..?!

[Dubanka]

But the thing is. You're not even paying. You paid the normal amount of money for the game and can now enjoy an online world free for the time being.
You're asking about intents? Since when..?!

correction. paid normal amount of money for a finished game, and instead got a product that is still very much in an alpha state. I know i know, should have known, blah blah blah...bottom line, money was taken, and they are charging for the service. But like everything else, some people have different tolerances for not getting what they paid for...some just shrug it off, some raise a unholy shitfit, others grumble and just vow to never 'come back'.

Do i really need to go back over my posts for the last several months where i ask for a definitive statement on what is the intent of the game design? I know there have been more than a couple of times when jadzia and i had agreement on the subject, even if from polar opposite perspectives.

anyway, the point of this post was to illustrate that 99% of what you can do is pointless...except for the act of doing it yourself.

The point of the post was not to discuss my relatively high level of impatience, or how I choose to try to hold someone accountable after they've taken my money.

there are hundreds of weapon and armor patterns...however your 'best' choice in armor boils down to bone, or naked. Why should i make cloth armor? WHat advantage does it afford me over bone...besides encumbrance. WHy should i use x axe over y axe? WHy should i just a hammer over an axe? does it matter?

This is me being a carebear. Everything should have value and be worthwhile in its own right. Hell, i think you should have to skill up in the specific item to make it well...ie. the skill % unlocks the pattern, but you have to practice that specific item to obtain mastery in it...

but again, every item should have function and should have a very good reason for using it...and potential downsides to using it as well. Now it's all about resistance vs. speed.

[thurgond]

The initial post shows a very poor understanding of the game.

armor: bone? is there a reason to wear anything other than bone if you know you're going to be fighting?

No, but you rarely "know you're going to be fighting." This really only happens when there is someone right outside your camp you want to kill. Normally, if you leave your camp to log, hunt, gather, even PvP, then bone is too heavy to be worth the extra weight if you are going any distance.

weapon: Does it matter which weapon...po axes and hammers are pretty brutal, is there any reason to use anything other than a po axe (since you can chop down trees with it as well).

If you want to hunt, then PO knives will get more bones. If you want to do a lot of terraforming , then the PO shovel will never wear out. If you plan to settle a rocky area, then taking the PO pick still won't have a long use, but it will do as much damage as an axe and you won't be one of the same as the crowd that choose an axe. Of course, new players don't get PO weapons, so this point is moot.

clothes: Is there a reason to wear clothes? do they do anything besides encumber (i haven't noticed)

You won't understand that looks are important for some people. Admittedly, comfort isn't in the game now, but eventually running around naked in the winter should provide penalties. Of course, the biggest knock on not wearing cloths is that it announces to the world "I'm a naked ganker." Since people can tell from a long ways away that you are into PvP but aren't risking anything, they will avoid contact with you.

food: is there a reason to eat anything besides fish?

Why should anyone spend time fishing? You can forage anywhere. By improving your forage skill you can find better quality resources that may have a use at some point.

skills: is there a reason to take anything besides basketry and tool making?

Taking toolmaking at the start is probably the worst choices a starting player can make (along with masonry and woodcraft, but these secondary crafts shouldn't be starting choices). The highest tool recipe is level 5 and it is easy to gain skill. Weapon making and architecture start with better tools for toolmaking, and since it is harder to gather the resources for weapons/buildings the extra 20 skill points save you more time.

Basket making is good only because it is the only way you can make containers. Right now, since baskets don't wear out, the only reason to be a high level basket maker is for high quality twine. Basketry might sound good for the anti-social loner that never wants to trade, but in reality you will have a harder (read near impossible if you don't start with the right tool recipe) time getting the tools to continue crafting.

ok. Just to hilight a problem...from a min max standpoint wwhats the 'best'.

This is the biggest misunderstanding. Xsyon is not the right game for min-maxers. The numbers are hidden by design to encourage players to diversify and experiment.

For the min-maxer, there are plenty of games out there where you can go on the forums and find out that: "This is June. The FOTM class is the NecroRogue. The best build and gear for the NecroRogue is ...." You can also play these games where you and four other NecroRogues spend hours in chat begging for a healer so you can get the gear you want.

Ravelli

[MrDDT]

Ravelli have you played this game?
Because you are wrong in so many points that are not opinions but facts.

OP knives do NOT yield more bones.
Shovels already dont wear out.
Water is pretty much in 2 mins of or less of anywhere on the map. Fishing is by far the fastest way to get hunger up.

I mean I can go on.
This game is easy for MIN-Maxers. You can train every skill in the game and that's the best way to be good at everything to be everything. Major issues with that. I would rather play a game with classes, then a game in which has no soft cap and people are forced to train every skill in the game to compete.
I would rather have a softcap, stat cap, and choices in how I want to make my necro/rogue/mage/warrior/priest.

How can you tell people are into PVP from a long ways away? Heck I cant even see a persons name until they are in like 80m of me, I lose site of people at 110m.

FYI I always wear bone armor. Just throwing that out there.

[thurgond]

Sorry, but better quality knives do yield more bones and get less failures. A couple wipes ago I chose hunting but picked the PO axe. I typically had 1-2 complete failures de-boning a critter. Currently, with a PO or VHQ knife and the same 25 hunting skill (never raises, never put points into it), I have never had a complete failure and usually get the max number of bones. I've haven't done any teraforming since decay went in, so I haven't checked on shovel wear.

Eating fish is the fastest way to get hunger up, but for time spent gathering you can get as full with foraging. In the time it takes for one cast, I can forage 3-4 times. You never catch more than one fish at a time, while foraging can find multiple munchies. My point is that fishing isn't the obvious only choice. If a soft cap is implemented, I'd rather have high scavenging/foraging/logging/hunting than fishing.

I can't tell if someone is into PvP, but I can see if they are naked long before they get within weapons range. I'm more wary around naked players because they may be an "I don't want to risk anything" ganker. You always go out looking for player combat which makes my point on when you should wear bone armor. If I go far from camp, I'm looking to haul back bones or handles so I wear leather as a tradeoff of protection for weight.

The typical min-maxer is looking to be over powered with the least effort. Maxing all skills isn't a min-maxer strategy.

I'm not arguing against soft caps, Xsyon needs them. It also needs reasons like comfort for the stuff that's in the game now. My point is that there are reasons to use things currently in the game that you and the OP don't see.

Ravelli

[Dubanka]

it's like bizarro land.

you're right, i've just got a very poor understanding of the game.

/boggle.

[MrDDT]

Sorry, but better quality knives do yield more bones and get less failures. A couple wipes ago I chose hunting but picked the PO axe. I typically had 1-2 complete failures de-boning a critter. Currently, with a PO or VHQ knife and the same 25 hunting skill (never raises, never put points into it), I have never had a complete failure and usually get the max number of bones. I've haven't done any teraforming since decay went in, so I haven't checked on shovel wear.

Eating fish is the fastest way to get hunger up, but for time spent gathering you can get as full with foraging. In the time it takes for one cast, I can forage 3-4 times. You never catch more than one fish at a time, while foraging can find multiple munchies. My point is that fishing isn't the obvious only choice. If a soft cap is implemented, I'd rather have high scavenging/foraging/logging/hunting than fishing.

I can't tell if someone is into PvP, but I can see if they are naked long before they get within weapons range. I'm more wary around naked players because they may be an "I don't want to risk anything" ganker. You always go out looking for player combat which makes my point on when you should wear bone armor. If I go far from camp, I'm looking to haul back bones or handles so I wear leather as a tradeoff of protection for weight.

The typical min-maxer is looking to be over powered with the least effort. Maxing all skills isn't a min-maxer strategy.

I'm not arguing against soft caps, Xsyon needs them. It also needs reasons like comfort for the stuff that's in the game now. My point is that there are reasons to use things currently in the game that you and the OP don't see.

Ravelli

How do you want me to prove it that QL of the knife has no effect on how many bones you get? It does effect the QL of the bones but not the amount of bones.

Well in the future we have no idea what skills will be worth to get or not.

If you are wearing leather, and Im naked, you wont be able to run as fast just FYI. So I dont really see that point. Second is that currently there is a bug that if you travel shows everyone as naked. Third is I would still wear bone armor. Its way to good for combat, its not near heavy enough. If Im doing anything I have my stuff in a bin, and if Im attacked and need to run or drop weight, I drop a bin (set to private) and now I can fight or run at max speed. Again no reason NOT to wear bone armor. Then I get over weight and kill myself to insta teleport with all my items back to town. (Sorry takes 30s)

Your right, a typical min-maxer is looking to do it in the least effort, guess what? Here they need every skill in the game, they are likely to do the skills that dont give them as much exp last.

My point is all your reasons, I dont agree with. I have more skills than you, I have better gear armor weapons etc and guess what I see no reason for it. In fact Im using the lowest QL weapons I can find because Im training my skills, and if Im in combat to the death I use the PO.
Tell me why I should use leather over Bone armor? Heck tell me why I should use Deathbone armor over Carson? or the other way around?

[wolfgar]

why? so we can compare epeens?

You have to admit that most player have shown themselves very impatient. You probably feel this is a proper response to the current state of affairs, but as Xsyon said this is an evolving and changing game where things are where he expected them to be at this stage. Your problem is they are not where YOU want them to be.

You are actually right that many need more, where you don't seem to get it is that with the exception of a very few on these forums, your vision for the game is not as accepted as you have convinced yourself it is. The players have the ability to chose what they like and dislike, and sure don't need you to dictate what they should have or get, any more than they should bend to my perspective.

To me all these threads are a self-correcting errors. Those that don't get what they want will leave to be replaced by those that like what they get, and NOBODY will care or remember all this posturing.

Also since it is real people that play here, real people feelings, desires, wants and needs come into play. You are convinced that "most" agree with you. The 22 members of my tribe do not. They actually enjoy crafting just to do it. Do they want more? Of course! I do too, we are just patiently playing and building and trying things out till it is here.

The threads on the forum lately only serve to demonstrate that players today are a product of the other games they have played and if anything have become more demanding that it all be the way THEY want, not the way it is.

If you like checkers you will play it .. alot.. and often.. others will feel you are crazy and that checkers is the most boring thing in the world... but YOU won't because you love checkers.

Maybe you want others to agree with you because you feel you are so smart and have it all figured out... other posters have pointed out alternatives to your view point and you never listen to them ... Maybe they just like checkers .. online checkers... with shovels and fishing... and terraforming

Quoted for the truth.. Mactavendish.. I have to agree totally with you.. No matter what game you play there are always people who are not happy with the way things are and try and change things.. Never happy with the way things are ..

Its actually a more and more common problem with games now days.. You see dev's listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise on forums etc.. And what happens when Dev's listen to a vocal minority is the rest (the majority) suffer. Mainly because the majority of people never visit the forums.. or maybe only once in a long time..

[Dubanka]

Quoted for the truth.. Mactavendish.. I have to agree totally with you.. No matter what game you play there are always people who are not happy with the way things are and try and change things.. Never happy with the way things are ..

Its actually a more and more common problem with games now days.. You see dev's listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise on forums etc.. And what happens when Dev's listen to a vocal minority is the rest (the majority) suffer. Mainly because the majority of people never visit the forums.. or maybe only once in a long time..

OK. since you're hijacking my thread with your ass kissery...going to have to crush this one.

My vision has never changed. What is required to bring about the vision is what changes because if things don't work out as intended, they must be rethought and reworked. That's how the game evolves.

How do the devs know if things are working as intended if they never get any feedback that they aren't, because players implicitly know that the devs will recognize that systems are broken and will magically fix them?

There is another jordi quote somewhere where he states that the game will evolve as the playerbase determines...how will they know that if they don't get feedback?

In the current scenario, the dev group should actually be happy that there are still people who are sticking around providing feedback about whats working, not, and is broken...since most of the population simply bailed. Saying, '...everything is just wonderful...and even if its not, i'm patient, and trust that the devs will get it all fixed...' is simply not constructive. Everything is obviously not wonderful (see population diaspora)..at least not for a majority of players and the devs OBVIOUSLY need players to help get things where they need to be (see that they opened the test server to expired accounts...they did that to *gasp* get more players testing the systems and providing feedback).

So take your everything is wonderful, thank you for your hard work, i love you and want to have your babies thoughts and start your own thread.

This thread is about how 95% of crafted items are worthless...or rather pointless to make...because they are either functionally obsolete (cloth/leather/grass armor), pointless (clothes), redundant (95% of weapons), or of significantly less value than shoudl be the case (any weapon that is not a PO weapon).

This conversation is designed to hopefully stimulate ideas to change this condition. Agree, disagree, state your own conclusion, whatever...I mean even ravelli's post is good since he's calling me out for just being stupid and uneducated on the systems...and why (he's wrong, but that's besides the point ). Discussion is good. Discussion is necessary. Attempting to Stifle discussion because the enclosed critique of [whatever] is seen as a slight to the work of the dev team is just stupid.

So please, by all means, if you ahve data that can prove that grass armor is actually awesome and worth wear, or leather or cloth, as compared to either a) being naked --for speed or b) wearing bone --for protection...please, by all means, spell it out. IF you have data that shows that weapons are in fact unique and each model has value beyond being merely vanity...please spell it out.

Step 1. Fix the combat mechanics - IN PROGRESS
Step 2. Fix the combat equipment - PENDING
Step 3. Balance the equipment as it relates to the mechanics.

Voila, working combat system.

[Book]

IF you have data that shows that weapons are in fact unique and each model has value beyond being merely vanity...please spell it out.

Uhm, dunno man, but I'm pretty sure you don't mean to say that the devs went through the trouble of such diversity thinking it was all about vanity...

I mean, sure, feedback is great! On the other hand, I'm also pretty sure you're well aware of where things are at from a completed development standpoint. You seem a relatively astute individual.

Take food for example... click on the cooking icon recently? Anything happen? I don't think the icon was put into place because it looked purty on the screen... clearly it's not in yet and there's a lot on the shelves waiting to be taken down and implemented.

Would I be able to provide data that the Gathering suit is meant more of a light scouting armor / summer hiking armor than say Bone which is more of a heavy armor?
Bah, don't have data, no. But I'm sure you know that's the long-term intent...

Weapons? Is it working as it might in the future when development has reached it? I mean honestly, you think the devs think all is hankydory in that department and would leave it alone were it not for you making this thread? I find it hard to believe that.

I figure in the future(however distant), all the weapons will have varying efficacy in accordance with your opponent's armor. Archery and blades may be more effective against bone as there are spaces to slide through in the rib chest armor. Grass may be so tightly woven it protects better against archery BUT, it offers little padding protection against clubs bludgeoning the enemy or sparring buddy.

Any of this really that hard to imagine? Wouldn't have thought so.
Currently implemented? You know it isn't.

To be implemented in the next month? Wouldn't presume so, and wouldn't have thought you would either.

There's abundant proof that feedback is considered by the devs and indeed by the boss himself. We don't even have to go through an intermediary but rather get direct feedback from the top. Feedback seems very appreciated and is acknowledged.

But pointing to things as if assuming they are complete when you should, by now, easily be able to extrapolate the intent seems kinda silly.

You may say you shouldn't have to pay for a product with incomplete features, and you don't have to. Our feedback is still taken even if we are not currently subscribed.

You used to say that the combat revamp will fail because the experts of VD and other warring tribes won't be around to test it... well, test server is open to all...
Rather than use that to point to population issues, why not see it as having listened to what you were saying and addressed it promptly?