Some critics

[Book]

You can't make a game to please EVERYONE. Games that try to please everyone, end up pleasing no one.

True, but a lot of people are upset that safe totems can be put on junk and resources in the first place.

If John Doe grabs a knife and stabs me, I'm not going to blame the kitchen utensil company, I'm going to want the person who did the stabbing held accountable.

Ferraris are beautiful cars. Take it down a crowded sidewalk though and it becomes destructive. Would we blame ferrari? Or would we hold the driver accountable?

A gun "can" be a dangerous weapon. It can also be protection, recreation, food gathering tool... if Mr. Doe shoots someone, are we going to say he's innocent because the gun was made with the potential to do harm? Or would we hold the person who did the shooting accountable?

People in game get upset about "artificial, magical" protections. They accuse others of being carebears when those protections are suggested. That is the misdirection. The blame should be on those using the tools inappropriately. The people in control of their own actions should be the ones held accountable...

If you agree that the actions are inappropriate, then blaming NG is kind of a cop out. I do agree some things are a matter of incentive, but if people were a bit more capable of holding themselves accountable instead of needing babysitting rules to help them control themselves, there would be no problem.

imho.

[MrDDT]

True, but a lot of people are upset that safe totems can be put on junk and resources in the first place.

If John Doe grabs a knife and stabs me, I'm not going to blame the kitchen utensil company, I'm going to want the person who did the stabbing held accountable.

Ferraris are beautiful cars. Take it down a crowded sidewalk though and it becomes destructive. Would we blame ferrari? Or would we hold the driver accountable?

A gun "can" be a dangerous weapon. It can also be protection, recreation, food gathering tool... if Mr. Doe shoots someone, are we going to say he's innocent because the gun was made with the potential to do harm? Or would we hold the person who did the shooting accountable?

People in game get upset about "artificial, magical" protections. They accuse others of being carebears when those protections are suggested. That is the misdirection. The blame should be on those using the tools inappropriately. The people in control of their own actions should be the ones held accountable...

If you agree that the actions are inappropriate, then blaming NG is kind of a cop out. I do agree some things are a matter of incentive, but if people were a bit more capable of holding themselves accountable instead of needing babysitting rules to help them control themselves, there would be no problem.

imho.

What you just said isnt applying here.

What we have here, is Person A is a psycho killer. Person B makes knifes, Person C is the victim of the stabbing. Then you have person C and D that could have stopped them.
If person D could have stopped B from selling it to A, or stopped A from getting the knife. But didnt. Are they not also at fault?

Thats what you are having here. You have players that could have stopped the junk piles from being paved over, or resources taken, or areas being controlled with force, trade, politics etc. Yet you are not doing any of those. You want the game makers to put in a magical ruling to prevent people from getting knives EVEN the ones that use knives to eat and skin with. (In this case roads = knives).

Dont take tools out of the game, leave the tools add more tools to help players stop other players from griefing or protect themselves.
If you could hire guards to protect your junk piles from being roaded, or maybe fences, or other things like that, Im all for that. But no you want some magical fake system which prevents people to do stuff only because you dont think you like it. Well what if I want to pave over a junk pile because I want a trade road to my friend on the other side of my junk pile?

Geez. Think outside the box. Stop trying to force your limitations on people. Junk piles are ONLY able to be paved over because you wont protect them (you = people like you). Currently in game right now there are a few ways to stop your junk piles from being removed, used, paved over, cleared etc. Try using the tools, instead of crying because someone is playing the game within the rules and you dont like that.

You can ask for more tools like maybe able to build gates, or guard towers, or a warning system when people are in the area etc.

[Azhul_NS]

NG made the knives, and they could have made knives which could not be used to attack people, but they chose not to, and they didn't make any laws against stabbing people, either, and they reward people for stabbing.

[Book]

DDT, you're making my point man People behave in such a way that results in artificial barriers being put in place, and then they're upset about the artificial barriers... kinda self-defeating ain't it?

Take the rezzing with all your stuff example.

This wasn't a problem when people rezzed where they died. But then some douches decided to camp people's bodies and make the experience a pain in the arse. They could say "but the game's letting me do it!!! RahRahRah!"

Well, now the game doesn't let them do it... happy with the outcome? Doubt anyone really is. Thank the douches.

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?

[MrDDT]

DDT, you're making my point man People behave in such a way that results in artificial barriers being put in place, and then they're upset about the artificial barriers... kinda self-defeating ain't it?

Take the rezzing with all your stuff example.

This wasn't a problem when people rezzed where they died. But then some douches decided to camp people's bodies and make the experience a pain in the arse. They could say "but the game's letting me do it!!! RahRahRah!"

Well, now the game doesn't let them do it... happy with the outcome? Doubt anyone really is. Thank the douches.

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?

Thats just my point, its not the "douches" fault. The system where they res with all the items back at base is the fault now.
Clearly it was a problem to res with all your stuff right back where you were. I dont see a problem with what the "douches" were doing. How am I going to protect my lands if you can respawn right on top of where I killed you? You expect me to just walk away from you after you died?

You cant hold everyone accountable for everything. What you find right might not be right to others. Its like say if your neighbor wants a road to his friend. You might say "NO DONT PAVE THAT". Doesnt make it wrong. Just means you differ in your opinions of it.

Clear cutting is ONLY a problem because of regrowth and lacking a way to plant trees. Not because people want to spend time cutting trees. You really upset because people are wanting to cut trees? Is it hurting the tree's feelings? What if trees insta grew back would it be a problem then? NO it wouldnt.

Tree issue is being fixed the right way, trees are going to be allowed to be replanted, and they will respawn. Great, should have been like that in the first place. Nothing to do with people "clear-cutting" trees.

Man up and stop people from cutting your trees, or you can place a safe protective totem over them. You have options. Stop crying out for the game maker to put magical safeties on everything.

[Azhul_NS]

Edit: Azhul, I do agree that with things like clear-cutting, there's a problem of incentives given to reward the behaviour. Not good. I don't, though, think that should absolve personal accountability. Do you?

Yes. People play to progress. If behaviour is rewarded by the game, then the responsibility is NG's. It's not griefing if the game rewards it. You can't expect people to play nice in a survival game where other people are the main threats.

[Book]

Yeah... you guys are totally right. Taking personal responsibility and giving a moment's thought as to how your actions might affect another really should be too much too ask. Glad you set me straight on that!

Incidentally DDT, the junk pile I use is very small, only takes about half my safe zone, and yes, it's protected. Haven't shed a tear yet, but having the capacity to empathize with those affected even if you aren't isn't entirely beyond most people.

I'm pretty sure you know we're not talking about a thin road from point A to point B... but whatever it takes for you to deny understanding my point is cool.

[MrDDT]

I'm pretty sure you know we're not talking about a thin road from point A to point B... but whatever it takes for you to deny understanding my point is cool.

Thats not the point and you know it. You will remove that option if the system you try to place is put in. You understand that right?

[Trenchfoot]

How do you ever have an antagonist when the game 'forces' everyone to behave?

Or is it that you like your opposition without any teeth?

[Jadzia]

I just read a comment on mmorpg.com. Someone said he left the game because some asshole clearcut every tree in his area, then the same person started to pave the junkpiles. Sounds like you, MrDDT...you can congratulate yourself. One customer is down, some hundreds more to go. Your faith in your own superiority will help you to finish your mission.

And no, its not the fault of the person who made the knife. Its more like a brick-making company...people buy their bricks to build houses. But one day a psychopath buys some bricks and start to kill people by hitting them on the head with it...its obviously not the fault of the brick-maker. And if they implement a rule that their brick can only be used on building sites and not everywhere thats a very good and logical decision.

Trench, I don't believe that meaningful PvP for you is paving junkpiles at night when no one is around or inside your own safe zone. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do that. Especially without any reason.