Are contested totems the best way for land control

[Hanover]

ten characters.

Thanks...sounds horrible! It appears some here are trying to turn Xsyon into that abomination

[ColonelTEE3]

Thanks...sounds horrible! It appears some here are trying to turn Xsyon into that abomination

If there is a God, this will not become that... that thing

[mrcalhou]

I actually agree with you.
VD has argued for a long time that PO weapons need to be significantly nerfed.
We have also argued that the insignificance of gear (armor/clothing) was a major problem.

VD has argued since we first showed up on these forums that pvp needs a point. Pointless pvp is boring pvp. Sometimes you fight to pick a fight, but usually you fight over something. To extend my economic model from before:

harvest raw materials --> crafted goods --> goods get destroyed through use --> need for new goods --> locate raw materials source --> secure raw materials --> harvest raw materials

The point of contention in this model is the securing of the materials. You are either doing this by holding the land, or taking/stealing/buying it from the person who does hold the land, or taking over the land. This is your conflict point. The conflict point then drives the pvp cycle (craft gear --> pvp --> craft replacement /better gear)...there is always an arms race (assuming of course the gear is not worthless, as it is now).

Pointless pvp wont work. If pointless pvp worked, this game would be thriving...because pvp is completely and utterly pointless right now. Most people, even those that are 100% uber rabid pvp fans, enjoy having a point behind their action...it's the achiever piece of the bartles equation. PvP in a a territorial war has a couple phases.
I- rpk. random walking around opportunity killing. ie. what we have now. dude on on a trash hill not paying attention to his surroundings...guess ill kill him and take his stuff.
II- reprisal pk - dude comes back and camps your town in penalty for killing.
III- resource pvp - fighting over resource zones/nodes/mob spawns.
IV- asset wars- usually an escalation from reprisal or resource pvp. Sometimes purely expansionist.

We have players that like to pick fights...they like I & II. We have more players that like the team based focus that you get with III. All like when the skirmishing culminates in the 'real' game, which is defending your house, or trying to burn someone else's down. There isn't anything quite like fighting to defend something you've spent a large amount of time making, or fighting someone who is trying to protect their own investement. It's a completely different level of intensity as compared to I-III. It's not oftent that you find real emotion (fear, desparate, elation, even pride) in a video game...but the fights we've had bring that out.

1. Fix the Mechanics.
2. Fix the Gear.
3. Implement Resources.
4. Implement Seiging mechanics.

OK, finally. To drive home the 'need' to get some type of resource, that is where the totem expansion idea i posted comes in. There has to be a constant consumable requirement, for a consumable that does not currently exist. Everyone wants to make their tribe bigger, badder, whatever. Everyone wants a 6 story totem. Go get the unobtanium, and its cousin cantgetthisOre, and rank up your totem. oh, it takes 10 of each, per week, to maintain. Now you have a reason to get something, a reason to fight for something, so you have a reason to get gear, etc. etc. etc.

anyway. TLDR, i know. apologies.

Brilliant post.

[Hanover]

If pointless pvp worked, this game would be thriving...because pvp is completely and utterly pointless right now.

I'm all for a reason to fight, but the current combat mechanics just suck. (uninspired,clunky,out of sync...) If combat worked and was remotely enjoyable things might be different.


Combat: Two elderly arthritics trying to copulate while balancing on greased bowling balls.

[MrDDT]

The problem is that PvP can't create a need if th items themselves are useless. Why would you need an armor ? They do nothing. Why would you need a weapon? Your PO weapon is better than anything. You took over a land ? How nice. Why did you do that though ? To gain more absolutely pointless and useless buildings ? They are only for vanity even with PvP.
This is what I'm saying. With the current system (as in items have no use) PvP wouldn't have any use either, just as crafting has no use. Why would you fight over useless things ? Just because ?

Armor has a HUGE effect on combat right now.

[ocoma]

I just read Danathur's "Hello Thread" I skipped it before because I thought it was just a thread from a random player who posted in the wrong forum section. :-)

As a starting point for the above explained process, to produce enough food to keep your comfort at MAXIMUM (again you can survive without intensive farming, but we are talking here about being at the top) you will have to find a suitable farming spot and start farming. To protect this spot you can drop an „expansion“ totem. But this totem will be attackle and your crops can be taken away or even only destroyed by others. This should generate conflicts and hopefully give you a first reason to struggle about. How the "siege mechanics" will work in detail, I will present in a different thread, where I will ask for your feedback on it, cause this post is already getting to long for a first "Hello" ...

This part in particular where he describes in more detail how contested totems will work is interesting. If there are a number of resources ect out in the green mist lands that can not be harvested unless a contested totem is dropped on them, then I think the contested totem system may indeed be viable.

[Dubanka]

I just read Danathur's "Hello Thread" I skipped it before because I thought it was just a thread from a random player who posted in the wrong forum section. :-)





This part in particular where he describes in more detail how contested totems will work is interesting. If there are a number of resources ect out in the green mist lands that can not be harvested unless a contested totem is dropped on them, then I think the contested totem system may indeed be viable.

yeah, hopefully when it's rolled out it's farming/mining (i'd imagine the code would be fairly similar). planting unique trees, locating mineral veins, and then extracting/harvesting.

i don't think 'food' will be enough. you have to roll out the resources, the seige mechanics and the expanded crafting lines at the same time (as well as having already fixed the general pvp mechanics issue)...it's 'easy' to see with a basic flow chart.

[Trenchfoot]

Fighting over resources, so that you can be more successful at fighting over more resources seems pointlessly circular to me. This isn't directed at any one post, but I am concerned that fighting over resources alone will become a meaningless treadmill.

If conquest is limited to resources and those resources usefulness is pigeonholed into the pvp game, then this is nothing less than a dog chasing its tail. There has to be more to it than this.

I would rather the devs create overall 'necessities' and let the players decide what to fight over. As opposed to providing custom tailored 'necessities' with the intent to create cattle-chute reasons to pvp.

Question: What feature other than tribal conquest can break this circular loop? Just to qualify this isn't intended as a backhanded question. I'm asking because I honestly can't think of anything, not to suggest that tribal conquest IS the only thing.

I do know this. One of the most essential factors in conquest is the conquest of your enemies. People should be allowed to conquer rare resources, by eliminating their competition, not simply by controlling an area. Anything else is Shakespeare in the park.

EDIT: In other words, if you can conquer resources but not the enemy you're fighting to conquer those resources. Conquest is a treadmill with little reward other than more treadmill.

[Dubanka]

Fighting over resources, so that you can be more successful at fighting over more resources seems pointlessly circular to me. This isn't directed at any one post, but I am concerned that fighting over resources alone will become a meaningless treadmill.

If conquest is limited to resources and those resources usefulness is pigeonholed into the pvp game, then this is nothing less than a dog chasing its tail. There has to be more to it than this.

I would rather the devs create overall 'necessities' and let the players decide what to fight over. As opposed to providing custom tailored 'necessities' with the intent to create cattle-chute reasons to pvp.

Question: What feature other than tribal conquest can break this circular loop? Just to qualify this isn't intended as a backhanded question. I'm asking because I honestly can't think of anything, not to suggest that tribal conquest IS the only thing.

I do know this. One of the most essential factors in conquest is the conquest of your enemies. People should be allowed to conquer rare resources, by eliminating their competition, not simply by controlling an area. Anything else is Shakespeare in the park.

I agree. The spin off of creating things of value, is you develop real trade. and real trade hubs. trade causes human interaction. Interaction causes drama. Drama creates politics, which creates more drama. Ultimately, pvp should just be a means of ensuring something is obtained, and be the final stage of 'diplomacy'. But you have to have something to start the train moving.

[Trenchfoot]

But you have to have something to start the train moving.

Right on.

I think you should be able to hold totems for ransom.

For example: X tribe keeps contesting our newly conquered resource. We form a war party and capture their totem. Then through diplomacy, we hammer out an agreement that we return their town unblemmished if they agree not to contest our rare resource.

EDIT: Qualify that, Home Totem. Or in other words, their nation state.