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  1. #61
    Xsyon Citizen
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Valdosta, Georgia
    Posts
    61
    As far as decay/upkeep of totems pay close attention to what Darkfall has...... You are in the middle of something (in game or IRL) and you remember (or get notification in game) that you have to pay taxes on your cottage/house/villa/keep. Now you have to stop what you are doing and go pay your taxes. If you do not pay your taxes you lose your cottage/house/villa/keep. Trust me you do NOT want this to happen. Should you have to interupt your real life to go take care of something in game? Or, as Jadzia stated "perhaps he can't play due to real life issues". Should a player lose what they have worked for in game due to LIFE happening. Or should they be given time or notification (e-mail) to rejoin the ranks of participating players. Just a few random thoughts.

  2. #62
    I dunno how it is in Darkfall but I know how POS towers work in Eve online, and thats the model I like, I lived solo in wormhole space for awhile and keeping my tower fuelled was something I didnt really have to worry about that often. I had a large quantity of fuel items in my hangar and the fully stocked tower could run for weeks without needing a refuel.

    If LIFE does happen (Its a myth!) you can have your totem(s) fully stocked with weeks of fuel. Also, who says that keeping a homestead going solo should be easy?

  3. #63
    Very interesting how this thread is developing.

    It has gone from vehement criticism of my basic idea to accepting that 1 man totems ARE a problem, and that the general consensus is that if you don't pay you should not have land.

    I am very glad that my post got this much dialog going.

    Books simple idea to me is a great starting point.

    If you have an active subscription, even if you leave for 4 months, you lose nothing. All items in game should decay to some degree, buildings much slower then weapons, tools more than weapons and baskets decay fastest of all items. This would add reason for decay and maintenance, and also promote trade and exploration.

    Of course the billing system needs to work properly, and warning emails would have to be sent, and removal of any inactive totems never re-subbed or email responded to.

    But really, how should tribal land expansion be done?

    Basing it solely on membership means that ( as it is currently ) There are a few BIG tribes with a lot of members but few actives. I easily see why this concerns folks with large areas and lots of work in their tribal lands. This is a problem to the current player base.

    I do agree with the ideas that have been put forth about expansion should be tied more to efforts made not members joined. So, what could be tried?

    Too much and folks will just move on to another game that is more fun and less like a job. To easy and we are right back were we are.

    1. Base upkeep on number of members.

    For instance, 500 bricks per member ( active or not ) per quarter. So, for a tribe with 65 members in their list, that's 32.5k bricks every 4 months . If maintained within the 4 month period radius does not change. If not, it drops 5 meters per 500 bricks short of the 32.5k they need for upkeep. It could also expand 5 meter out for every 500 bricks over the 32.5 k they need.

    This would only negatively affect a tribe if they didn't do their upkeep. Even if they only had 5 actives, if they really wanted to keep the radius they have, it would not be a burden to maintain. This would also allow those tribe that are "waiting" to maintain their areas without having the entire tribe to login.

    This idea is about taking responsibility for what they want to own. If you do not want to pay or maintain what you have built up, you should make way for others that do .

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by banden View Post
    I feel very strongly that decay should not be tied to paying your subscription fee. An upkeep system would work better.
    Why ? I'd like to hear your reasons.

    Bandon, we try to find a solution for 2 problems:

    1. Dealing with inactive totems
    2. Controlling the size of a tribe area

    I like your suggestion about praying for upkeep. That's easy, not annoying (if it doesn't take too much time). But how would you deal with players who are unable to play for 1-2-3 months ? Punishing a paying customer by losing his land is not a very smart financial decision imo, and I doubt any developer would choose that.
    How does your suggestion deal with the 2. problem ? If its easy to maintain a totem how you solve the question of owning a big area ? Everyone can own the max amount of land for kinda free, or it would still be based on member number (which is a very bad system imo) ?

    So your suggestion answers a part of the first one, but not the second.

    My suggestion
    for #1: Totem decay when a player unsubs. As long as the player is subbed the totem stays up without upkeep.

    for #2:
    one time purchase of land expansions. I mean you can pay for like every 5 meter radius expansion once, and after that it is yours as long as you pay for the game. Its kinda like upgrading the totem, every level of the totem comes with a bigger radius. The higher level the totem is the more costly is the upgrade (exponentially growing).

    If we try to find 1 solution for these 2 problems, I'm afraid we will necessarily end up with a huge and very annoying upkeep.

    Edit:
    One more question, bandon. Your other suggestion about fueling up a totem....what if a player stores stuffs enough for a 3 months upkeep in his totem then unsubbes ? Will his totem stay there for that 3 months or not ? ( I believe it shouldn't. )

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Why ? I'd like to hear your reasons.

    Bandon, we try to find a solution for 2 problems:

    1. Dealing with inactive totems
    2. Controlling the size of a tribe area

    I like your suggestion about praying for upkeep. That's easy, not annoying (if it doesn't take too much time). But how would you deal with players who are unable to play for 1-2-3 months ? Punishing a paying customer by losing his land is not a very smart financial decision imo, and I doubt any developer would choose that.
    How does your suggestion deal with the 2. problem ? If its easy to maintain a totem how you solve the question of owning a big area ? Everyone can own the max amount of land for kinda free, or it would still be based on member number (which is a very bad system imo) ?

    So your suggestion answers a part of the first one, but not the second.

    My suggestion
    for #1: Totem decay when a player unsubs. As long as the player is subbed the totem stays up without upkeep.

    for #2:
    one time purchase of land expansions. I mean you can pay for like every 5 meter radius expansion once, and after that it is yours as long as you pay for the game. Its kinda like upgrading the totem, every level of the totem comes with a bigger radius. The higher level the totem is the more costly is the upgrade (exponentially growing).

    If we try to find 1 solution for these 2 problems, I'm afraid we will necessarily end up with a huge and very annoying upkeep.
    How will you handle decay in a big tribe if its tied to subscription? Whose subscription determines when your totem decays? The cheifs? Everyones combined subscription?

    Id be careful doing anything with subscription because it can be abused by having many accounts, yea it costs money but some people dont mind that if they can get a competitive edge.

    1# Praying isent that much different then say... making bricks is it? I like the idea with quanity and quality better because it has actual value, while praying is just afk time. Im of course assuming that crafting is made less clicky and tedious eventually, it has been discussed.
    If you have to go afk for 1-2-3 months with no hope of ever during that time logging on and restocking your totems, then you shouldnt have a solo homestead. Your own fault for trying to do something you cant handle.

    2# By distance of course! I forgot about that, I got caught up in laying out my idea I forgot about size. First totem you throw down has 25 m radius, just like now, but it has a low upkeep that could maintained by 1-2 players. The upkeep of the next totems will increase dependant on the distance to the main totem, easy enough.

  6. #66
    Although I agree with some form of "totem upkeep", I believe If upkeep on a totem requires finished mats, it will only become one more "grind", not fun in my book.

    So I've been thinking - what if we could kill 2 birds with one stone? The Xsyon community still has not come up with a "monetary system" ie, putting a value system in place that could affect the entire population and not just local or regional and give us a scale to determine worth of items crafted or resources gathered etc. The following does not have anything to do with decay of buildings, walls, resources etc. That still should remain a seperate issue.

    So here goes my idea -

    We have certain resources that we can find in game that have no use, or no future use that we know of to create items and that can easily be an exchange commodity and is scavengeable.

    A) Dollars (quarters & pennies being a subset of dollars)
    B) Bottle Caps
    C) Beer Tabs

    The Value could be determined as such:
    $1.00 = 4 $ .25 and/or 100 $.01
    1 Bottle Cap = $ .10
    1 Beer Tab = $ .05

    First Xsyon determines the size, purchase price & monthly upkeep costs on 1 - 5 man homesteads/Totems, 6-10 man Totems, 11 - 20 man Totems etc.

    When a new player enters the world, he receives 1 1/2 the amount it costs to place a one man totem. Should he/she place his totem and then decide to move it - they would loose 75% of the cost of that totem. In order to expand the totem, a new player must join the tribe, and depending on which size category that particular totem falls into, it would adjust the cost & upkeep expense and what the new tribe member has to pay inorder to join. Should the new player leave the tribe, he/she would receive the 25% refund,

    Having a monetary system in place - you now can start determing the value of things created, labor costs, mat costs etc. You have a time sink & resource sink without grinding, and a much more flexible system that gives players choices on how they want to play the game. For instance, when I played SWG, I didn't become any kind of a crafter, but instead I became a trader (buying low - selling high) in order to support myself.

    I can see all sorts of scenarios that the above idea could create, be it either tribes assessing taxes on members, ways different members could earn monies to pay their taxes, even making one tribe more economically viable by having low member taxes. Well I could go on and on thinking up new scenarios.

    I'm sure there are problably some holes in my idea, and that there are many things that need to be fleshed out - but maybe it will give us a new way to look at the dead totem and totem expansion issue.

    Shoot holes thru it or add to it.

    China

  7. #67
    I only have 2 issues your idea China

    1. I have over 20k in dollars alone. I am sure if we all pooled the "money" we would have well over 50k.

    This is great for players that have been around a long time and places any new player or tribes at a distinct disadvantage.

    2. This also mandates a form of currency not decided upon by the players.

    This may or may not be a bad thing, but the entire game is designed around having the players provide the quests, interactions and even the currency.


    Using resources that take effort to produce, puts all players on an equal footing. It also allows the choice to be entirely in the hands of the individual players.

    You want to build up a large area with a castle and a moat? Gotta work for it.

    Want to just have a simple hut in the mountains to store loot from raiding? Not so much work.

    Giving a player so much in a game that is about survival is just ridiculous.

    If you want a totem it should cost you something in the game world... after all we are playing a game here right?
    Not interested in the game atm, no prob.. you don't get anything and lose what you have.

    I am NOT a crush style player, nor a pk'er and not all that interested in combat pvp.

    And yet I am all for this.

    I would expect a PK/crush/dominate player would want to be able to control larger and larger areas if they could... and in this game even they need to craft to have the highest HP... SO, what is the real issue here?

    Do folks want big things for no effort? You folks really want an easy button?

    If so why are you playing this game? if anything this game needs to be harder NOT easier.

    Bottom line: pay to play, and the rewards go to those that work hardest to get them.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mactavendish View Post
    Very interesting how this thread is developing.

    It has gone from vehement criticism of my basic idea to accepting that 1 man totems ARE a problem, and that the general consensus is that if you don't pay you should not have land.

    Its not just 1 man totems, its tribes holding huge areas of land with very few people with no cost to them.

    Having 159m radius with 5 actives is not fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by banden View Post
    Leveling the crafts in this game is allready rather tedious so I agree that making people craft more stuff to upkeep totems would be bad, but this is more because crafting is tedious, thats a different issue, there are other threads for that . At present we craft a lot items just because we get skillups for them right?

    I had this idea a while back that totems could be fueled by offering crafted items at the totem. How much upkeep the totem would recieve would be determined by the quantity of materials used and the quality of the finished item.

    upkeep for Quality:
    Junk= 0
    poor= 0.5
    low= 1
    Moderate = 2
    High = 4
    Very high = 6
    Master = 8

    Upkeep for quantity
    1 mat = 1
    2 mat = 2
    3 mat = 4

    This is a very rough guestimate of what would work, I really have idea how much item 1 up keep should give you. But lets do a thought experiment ok?

    Its monday and the upkeep on my totems are running out, damn... So i have to go get some items I can use for offerings so i can keep them going. So I go grab my cart and I have 2 possible ways of getting the stuff I need, I could go craft or I could down to a trade hub and barter for it. Trading would be costly and i dont have a alot to trade with so I decide I want to craft. Now again I have some choices, I could go gather stone to use for bricks or I could go gather a vider variety of materials to make cloth items or leather or tools. I have pretty good resource and masonry skills so I decide to make bricks allthough I would get more upkeep for my time out of getting cloth items because they use larger quantities of materials but my skills in cloth arent so good so the quality of the finished item would be a lot lower than the bricks.

    Upkeep for 1 very high quality brick: 6+1= 7
    Upkeep for 1 low quality cloth item with 3 mat: 1+4= 5

    Its important for me to make absolutely clear that this system is not supposed to be another tedious job. Lets say you have to use 1-2 hours every week to make sure all your totems are fueled and this would even be a team effort for larger tribes, so some times you might not even need to worry about it.


    This isnt good like this IMO, because new players value is almost worthless then. They will feel like they cant help or dont help much at all.

    Master QL resources are unlimited and very very easy to get.

    A lot of these ideas have already been hashed out. Here in the suggestions.

    http://www.xsyon.com/forum/project.php?issueid=1230

    I like some of these ideas people are putting out that are very close or the same of what's already been said.

  9. #69
    DDT.. even with dezgards idea a dedicated 5 man team could maintain a 200 m radius tribe area.

    If you don't like that... what specifically would you suggest that is better?

    It's all well and good to say you don't like something, but tell us what you think will work better.

    I don't for a minute believe you have no inactive's in your tribe.. so your complaint applies to your tribe as well..
    ( none of us but the dev's can tell how many active subs any tribe has so please stop spouting guessed at numbers )

    But you know, that is not really the point anyway.

    The point is that paying subs only should have the "right" to have a totem, and that most here feel that there should be a cost incurred to own land.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by China View Post
    Although I agree with some form of "totem upkeep", I believe If upkeep on a totem requires finished mats, it will only become one more "grind", not fun in my book.

    So I've been thinking - what if we could kill 2 birds with one stone? The Xsyon community still has not come up with a "monetary system" ie, putting a value system in place that could affect the entire population and not just local or regional and give us a scale to determine worth of items crafted or resources gathered etc. The following does not have anything to do with decay of buildings, walls, resources etc. That still should remain a seperate issue.

    So here goes my idea -

    We have certain resources that we can find in game that have no use, or no future use that we know of to create items and that can easily be an exchange commodity and is scavengeable.

    A) Dollars (quarters & pennies being a subset of dollars)
    B) Bottle Caps
    C) Beer Tabs

    The Value could be determined as such:
    $1.00 = 4 $ .25 and/or 100 $.01
    1 Bottle Cap = $ .10
    1 Beer Tab = $ .05

    First Xsyon determines the size, purchase price & monthly upkeep costs on 1 - 5 man homesteads/Totems, 6-10 man Totems, 11 - 20 man Totems etc.

    When a new player enters the world, he receives 1 1/2 the amount it costs to place a one man totem. Should he/she place his totem and then decide to move it - they would loose 75% of the cost of that totem. In order to expand the totem, a new player must join the tribe, and depending on which size category that particular totem falls into, it would adjust the cost & upkeep expense and what the new tribe member has to pay inorder to join. Should the new player leave the tribe, he/she would receive the 25% refund,

    Having a monetary system in place - you now can start determing the value of things created, labor costs, mat costs etc. You have a time sink & resource sink without grinding, and a much more flexible system that gives players choices on how they want to play the game. For instance, when I played SWG, I didn't become any kind of a crafter, but instead I became a trader (buying low - selling high) in order to support myself.

    I can see all sorts of scenarios that the above idea could create, be it either tribes assessing taxes on members, ways different members could earn monies to pay their taxes, even making one tribe more economically viable by having low member taxes. Well I could go on and on thinking up new scenarios.

    I'm sure there are problably some holes in my idea, and that there are many things that need to be fleshed out - but maybe it will give us a new way to look at the dead totem and totem expansion issue.

    Shoot holes thru it or add to it.

    China

    I like this idea, and I dont think it would be bad at all. I do however, think basic resources (rocks, sand, etc) would work better, as they ARE used in other things and will help drive a market.

    Using items that have no in game value other than upkeep for a totem will help create an economy, however, its will also force people to do scavenaging (only way other than trade to get those items). You could still trade to get them, but better will be to use items that have dual uses.

    This will also help tribes that have been around a while not have a huge advantage because these resources were used before and still used, adding them to upkeep costs will mean they dont have huge stock piles of these resources.

    I'm not shooting down your idea, I'm simply saying I believe it would be better to use basic resources that are used in many things.

    Added after 8 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mactavendish View Post
    DDT.. even with dezgards idea a dedicated 5 man team could maintain a 200 m radius tribe area.

    If you don't like that... what specifically would you suggest that is better?

    It's all well and good to say you don't like something, but tell us what you think will work better.

    I don't for a minute believe you have no inactive's in your tribe.. so your complaint applies to your tribe as well..
    ( none of us but the dev's can tell how many active subs any tribe has so please stop spouting guessed at numbers )

    But you know, that is not really the point anyway.

    The point is that paying subs only should have the "right" to have a totem, and that most here feel that there should be a cost incurred to own land.

    Paying subs should have the right to a totem.
    They shouldnt have a right to hold 200m radius with no cost or effort. It's not fair to anyone else.

    This isnt about me. If they kicked all the inactives out of my tribe I would be more than happy with that. As long as they gave them fair warning.

    5 man tribe holding a 200m would be very hard, and if they go inactive for a short amount of time. They would lose a lot of land.

    You ask me what is better.

    Ive been talking about this for months. My idea is here.
    http://www.xsyon.com/forum/project.php?issueid=1230

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