War, taking towns & forts

[Book]

I dont know why they think that but its not going to hurt the PVPers.

I don't think it's about hurting PvPers for anyone... what would be the point?

The general idea is to devise and discuss systems that would allow everyone to have fun. You won't hear me concede that to be impossible. In my opinion, impossible is the only impossibility. Believing something to be impossible just becomes a self-defeating and self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, I lie, I do think the only ones who shouldn't get to have fun are the few that want to hurt the real person behind the toon. Not fond of their idea of fun, but then that isn't anyone here so it's been an enjoyable discussion!

[MrDDT]

I don't think it's about hurting PvPers for anyone... what would be the point?

The general idea is to devise and discuss systems that would allow everyone to have fun. You won't hear me concede that to be impossible. In my opinion, impossible is the only impossibility. Believing something to be impossible just becomes a self-defeating and self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, I lie, I do think the only ones who shouldn't get to have fun are the few that want to hurt the real person behind the toon. Not fond of their idea of fun, but then that isn't anyone here so it's been an enjoyable discussion!

I agree with this.

Well my overall topic points for this has been said, I try to sum it up.

Safe areas are needed.
These safe areas shouldnt be placed anywhere anytime.
Promote strife (pvp) with rare resources. This will also promote a better econ.
Safe areas should have all the basics for crafting. (Wood, sand, metal, animals, etc) however, the highest level of weapons/armor/siege equipment etc should be very limited in these areas, mostly in the non safe areas.
Size of these areas dont matter, as long as the resource balance is upheld with rare resources. (Like EVE online)
A system with punishment to griefers should be in place. (The good vs evil vs neutral system, AKA UO/Lineage2 system)
Ways for tribes to protect themselves (gates, walls, guards, animals etc)

Having said all that, I can go into a much much more detail system but first overall agreement of what is needed for the basics of people (both sides) to fit into a world. I dont see why PVE and PVPers cant play in the same server. Fact I look at games like EVE and Wurm, and I see it happen all the time.

Can you see something I listed here that is wrong? Or maybe missing for one side or the other?

[Arkonick]

What points you are over looking every time here is what I keep getting from you every time you post. You think pve players should have limited armor and weapons even tho you don't have a issue with them having huge safe areas they can have fun in. The one problem you want address is the pve side. They might not like to pvp dosn't mean they don't like to fight. Pve player prefiers npc's cause they have a choice so limiting there armor and weapons is dum. They want to fight epic mobs but they want it to be npc's cause they have the choice to run from a mob and it drop off after some ways across land. The reason they don't want to pvp is cause the player dont and 9 out of 10 times want stop chasing there prey unlike a npc that has no choice cause its told to wether it wanted to or not by the ai.

Pve players love to fight just as much as a pvp player but they don't want to fight every time they walk out of the so called safe area. So if lets say jooky added epic mobs and high powered npc mobs then you would see pve players jump in and team up and go conqure the npc mob. So you can't give them crappy weapons and low armor.

What needs to happen is like in other pve/pvp games diffrent armor types one gives a player more fighting abilities against npc mobs while the other is tailored toward player mobs for the pvp player. siege weapons and all yes pve players shouldn't get access to this unless they particpate in pvp I will agree, but to take away war from them cause they don't like to fight real players isn't the answer cause they love to kill epic mobs and such just not real players.

Most pve players have fought wars in pve games epic mobs with insane abilities and planed war and made teams of people to take a single mob down.So if jooky is going to have epic creatures in game like he stated then makeing pve players have low armor and weapons isn't the answer. The correct answer is to make 2 diffrent armor types one which is for pvp and another which is for pve. In order to stop explote of pve players just being handed pvp gear with out partaking in pvp battle you make is so the player has to create there own pvp gear by farming mats in the pvp section where war totems and all are. I don't think you should add safe spots in the war section for pve players if its war section there shouldn't be any safe areas any thing should be destroyedable in that area. So if you build it it can be destroyed in that area.

I mainly disagree with you every time cause you are trying to put down pve players as if there carebears when in fact there not they have fought wars in the ring with mobs but there npc mobs. Then to top it off every one posting has made some cop out about pve players can just sit there and craft and talk if they don't want to pvp. They might not want to pvp but they do want to kill npc mobs. Its not they don't want to fight it's just they don't want to fight other gamers. So every time I hear you'll say the pve players can set craft all day makes me mad cause this isn't all they want to do.

When we can come up with something that makes game fun for both sides then I will agree until then I will keep disagreeing with this discussion on these fourms.

Which is why I would sugest to cut the map into so pve players have lake and mountains and myst and use the other side for war. This way pve players can craft fight epic mobs and stuff on there side and pvp players can battle each other and have epic mobs as well and use war siege weapons and stuff. I'm not saying this is the best idea but it's a start at looking for a solution for both player styles with out forcing pvp player to only pve crap and pve players to pvp crap. this still leaves option for pve players to still partake in rival pvp with the system jooky has spokken of. I'm not going to search the forums to point out the article where jooky explained in detail what he had planed.
This direction tho gives pvp players more options than what there going to have.

[MrDDT]

What points you are over looking every time here is what I keep getting from you every time you post. You think pve players should have limited armor and weapons even tho you don't have a issue with them having huge safe areas they can have fun in. The one problem you want address is the pve side. They might not like to pvp dosn't mean they don't like to fight. Pve player prefiers npc's cause they have a choice so limiting there armor and weapons is dum. They want to fight epic mobs but they want it to be npc's cause they have the choice to run from a mob and it drop off after some ways across land. The reason they don't want to pvp is cause the player dont and 9 out of 10 times want stop chasing there prey unlike a npc that has no choice cause its told to wether it wanted to or not by the ai.

Safe areas should have all the basics for crafting. (Wood, sand, metal, animals, etc) however, the highest level of weapons/armor/siege equipment etc should be very limited in these areas, mostly in the non safe areas.

I didnt say cant have them, Im saying limited amounts (resources for them).
What this does is promotes trade, and makes it so safe areas cant craft high level arms and armor for PVPers in safety. BUT what safety areas players can do is craft other things like tools etc and trade this, because they can do it freely without fear of attack or PVP.

Which is why I would sugest to cut the map into so pve players have lake and mountains and myst and use the other side for war. This way pve players can craft fight epic mobs and stuff on there side and pvp players can battle each other and have epic mobs as well and use war siege weapons and stuff. I'm not saying this is the best idea but it's a start at looking for a solution for both player styles with out forcing pvp player to only pve crap and pve players to pvp crap. this still leaves option for pve players to still partake in rival pvp with the system jooky has spokken of. I'm not going to search the forums to point out the article where jooky explained in detail what he had planed.
This direction tho gives pvp players more options than what there going to have.

Size of these areas dont matter, as long as the resource balance is upheld with rare resources. (Like EVE online)

Again, I dont see why you would be upset here, Ive already said you can make PVE lands as big as you want as long as the resource system is upheld. It would be better IMO though for PVE'ers IF they had a smaller area than the PVP area due to what as already listed before.



You act like I dont like PVE or something. I love fighting mobs, and doing raids and crafting. I love both sides of it. I tend to craft and PVE much more than PVP. Ask around to people that have played with me. Many are on these forums here.

1 problem I see with PVE vs PVP armor, is the fact that if a PVPer kills someone then what are they going to do with PVE armor? Its not a lot of reward there, fact it would almost be a joke.
Another issue with PVE vs PVP armor is the resources need to make each. Plus you would have to have 2 sets and stats for each.
Sure we can toss in there PVE armor/weapons if you want. Its not a huge deal to the system. If that's a major breaking point to many people and they think its worth the time to have all that extra coding and artwork on 2 sets of armor. Sure I guess it wont break the system. But I dont see the need for it. You didnt pose a good point about it, all you said pretty much is that you want it. Show me how it will effect trading, and make the gaming world better other than just "It would look cool or be cool"

[Arkonick]

These to images explain my post earlyer. It clearly shows pvp land scale and pve land scale which should clear up what I was talking about. Rough draft of the pics but should explain forced pvp to pve players and how limited there game exp is if there isnt seperate sections. pic A shows example of 2 none war tribes in game with war tribes around them. Pic B explains how to seperate them. This is no easy task to make all this work. Not your idea or mine really helps the situation. I think we should wait to see what happens after the prelude to see what jooky had in mind rather that us speculating what we think is best.

My address is on balance for 2 diffrent play styles and to point out how it's forced pvp in the game as of right now. What jooky has planned might fix all this. But you me and everyone else posting in here have not one clue on what that is we are speculating.

From what I see right now and this is my own point of view, it really isn't a pve game at all.

I mean we have crafting some wild animals thats the only thing in the game that pve players are use to that the game has to offer them. The rest of the thing's a pve player is use to don't exsist in the game. Those would be Named mobs to kill and quest. The game right now is every thing you will find in a pvp game minus stuff like npc's and quest from the npc's.

What do we do now?"Think about it!" Will we loose pve players? "yes" Will population go down? "yes"

[Phatkat]

From what I see right now and this is my own point of view, it really isn't a pve game at all.

I mean we have crafting some wild animals thats the only thing in the game that pve players are use to that the game has to offer them. The rest of the thing's a pve player is use to don't exsist in the game. Those would be Named mobs to kill and quest. The game right now is every thing you will find in a pvp game minus stuff like npc's and quest from the npc's.

What do we do now?"Think about it!" Will we loose pve players? "yes" Will population go down? "yes"[/QUOTE]


This is just about right. For those that dont want PvP then can really play any other game lol. I know there is a large PvE aspect to the game with all the crafting and terraforming, which is great, you can join a large tribe and have them get you your resources and what not. But to create a whole zone for just PvE is a bit much..

[Jadzia]

From what I see right now and this is my own point of view, it really isn't a pve game at all.

I mean we have crafting some wild animals thats the only thing in the game that pve players are use to that the game has to offer them. The rest of the thing's a pve player is use to don't exsist in the game. Those would be Named mobs to kill and quest. The game right now is every thing you will find in a pvp game minus stuff like npc's and quest from the npc's.

What do we do now?"Think about it!" Will we loose pve players? "yes" Will population go down? "yes"

This is just about right. For those that dont want PvP then can really play any other game lol. I know there is a large PvE aspect to the game with all the crafting and terraforming, which is great, you can join a large tribe and have them get you your resources and what not. But to create a whole zone for just PvE is a bit much..

I don't think that npc quests have to be a part of a PvE game. I believe all of us are here because we have had enough of the 'kill 10 rats' quest I for one never want to see an exclamation sign again lol.

The game is not a PvP game either. Phatkat, have you fought anyone in the game ? There is actually zero PvP in the game now. Combat is broken, desync is annoying, it breaks PvP even more than PvE.

The 'play another game' argument is not valid either There are a huge amount of PvP games out there, including the FPS ones. If you just want to kill others its much better to play an FPS. But all of us are here for a full game experience...not to just kill players, not to just kill mobs, but to play in a living world which we can influence, build and live in. There is not many games like that out there, and I don't know even one without forced PvP (perhaps Eve, but its not my thing to roleplay a ship).

So let's just not send each others to other games PvE and PvP players have equal rights to have fun here, none of us are superior to the other. The goal is to make a game where everyone can have fun without ruining the game to the others.

[Plague]

Safe zones stay. Get used to it.

Instead of coming up with ideas in wrong direction - taking over towns - youd should move into the right direction - taking over resources. Mines, quarries, farmland etc etc etc. What would you do with enemy fort? Rape and pillage then set his buildings on fire? No one gave it a real though, admit it.

Instead there should be a reward for pvp strong tribes besides having big ePeen. When you conquer a mine (for example) you get to control that mine's production and everyone must trade with you to obtain that resource (iron, copper, silver, bronze, who cares). And it will attract pvp tribes to attack you. If you lose you will not emoragequit because you just lost it all, you will rebuild your force from your safe zone and attack again. This will bring dynamics to the game and allow people to have breaks from pvp when they want (vacation, exams, work, sickness etc.).

What is being discussed here is a move in a griefer direction where a group of 20-30 morons can go around wrecking everyone's property while they are offline calling this pvp. Will population go down due to that? No. Game will go down because of that and it would be bye bye Xsyon.

[Yzandor]

Nice, real nice ideas guys. At first, i didnt think i would get so much people in to it, but after reading it all, i could risk myself to some sort of conclusion:
1-We cant separate pve\pvp in different servers.
2-Lets keep it simple

So to those 2 points, i let down my idea of city guards and blablabla, and i go with this simple solution: You can have 2 totems: one for your safe spot and one for a safe storage totem.

Keep the safe spot as we have in prelude right now. Thats helping newcomers to get to know the game peacefully. BUT, this safe spot as its limits:
A- If you build walls of any kind in or around it, your safe spot is no good anymore.
and B-You are limited in any kind of crafting, you can craft to a certain limit (enough to have fun for many hours\days) but if you want to continue your progress you have to let go your safe spot totem.

Now that you are ready to go alone, you can use your safe storage totem (with a very short radius) and put all your important stuff there. (THIS TOTEM DOES NOT PROTECT YOU) Once you find a tribe to join, you bring your safe storage totem and your items inside the walls of the tribe.

I think whats important to pve guys, its to loose items more then being killed, so by having a safe storage totem, maybe the radius of a tent, we found a solution.
Nobody high level or impact player on the game could hide behind or craft peacefully in a safe spot.
A penalty to "evil" players would be to loose their safe storage totem.

And thats it, easy, not complicated pve happy, pvp happy. Could be a safe storage tent more than a safe storage totem.
now im awaiting your opinions...

later
Yz

Added after 13 minutes:

What is being discussed here is a move in a griefer direction where a group of 20-30 morons can go around wrecking everyone's property while they are offline calling this pvp. Will population go down due to that? No. Game will go down because of that and it would be bye bye Xsyon.

Yeah and for that the attackers should have to give a 72 hours notice before attacking the Tribe in question. Its that option, or we are back with my city guards idea...lol (which i think could still be fun!)

[Jadzia]

Nice, real nice ideas guys. At first, i didnt think i would get so much people in to it, but after reading it all, i could risk myself to some sort of conclusion:
1-We cant separate pve\pvp in different servers.
2-Lets keep it simple

So to those 2 points, i let down my idea of city guards and blablabla, and i go with this simple solution: You can have 2 totems: one for your safe spot and one for a safe storage totem.

Keep the safe spot as we have in prelude right now. Thats helping newcomers to get to know the game peacefully. BUT, this safe spot as its limits:
A- If you build walls of any kind in or around it, your safe spot is no good anymore.
and B-You are limited in any kind of crafting, you can craft to a certain limit (enough to have fun for many hours\days) but if you want to continue your progress you have to let go your safe spot totem.

Now that you are ready to go alone, you can use your safe storage totem (with a very short radius) and put all your important stuff there. (THIS TOTEM DOES NOT PROTECT YOU) Once you find a tribe to join, you bring your safe storage totem and your items inside the walls of the tribe.

I think whats important to pve guys, its to loose items more then being killed, so by having a safe storage totem, maybe the radius of a tent, we found a solution.
Nobody high level or impact player on the game could hide behind or craft peacefully in a safe spot.
A penalty to "evil" players would be to loose their safe storage totem.

And thats it, easy, not complicated pve happy, pvp happy. Could be a safe storage tent more than a safe storage totem.
now im awaiting your opinions...

later
Yz

I think you don't get the main problem with this system, Yzandor. You can't force players to do what they don't like. Non-pvp players main problem is not loosing stuffs, thats a minor annoyance only. The main point is that they don't want to deal with jerks when they don't feel so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all of the PvPers are jerks, actually most of them are not. But those few of them who are can ruin the game for the rest of the playerbase.

I can assure you that your system wouldn't make non-pvp players happy. Having a safe zone where you can only craft limited items and you are forced to be unprotected if you want to progress sounds very very bad.

As Plague said, safe zones will stay. Try to find another way to make PvP enjoyable, without restricting the game for PvEers.