Law vs Chaos

[JCatano]

Yes, I read your post. That's why I said jail time is a ridiculous idea. That's probably why you weren't aware of any games with that mechanic. It's just not really a mechanic that does well. It sort of works for some very niche products, but I only know of cash shop ones with jail tokens for purchase: Ashen's Empire, Conquer Online... Both terrible, terrible games.

1 minute or 1 hour... I don't care. Bad idea.

Animal are NPCs. Non Playable Characters. NPC guards that can be upgraded and set to attack who you want via law or individual would be much better than any jail. If Jordi ever added jail time, you'd be playing Xsyon with Hopi, a few "yeeahh jail time rocks" people, and that's it.

Google jail games.

Since you always post a "balance" mantra, throw in jail time for crafters supplying anyone who kills a person they aren't at war with, and I'll go for your idea. Deal?

[maelwydd]

Jail time is still a bad and boring idea. "Punishments", if any, should be quick and bloody.

Well the point is: -

YOU can have whatever punishment system YOU want and YOU can enforce it YOUR way.
I can have whatever punishment system I want and I can enforce it MY way.

All that I am suggesting is a crime and punishment system that players can enforce themselves if they choose. And remember, such a system has to be applicable to Good, Neutral and Evil aligned tribes as well as being acceptable for BOTH the reasonable side of carebear and reasonable side of PvP land.

Starquest Online - Full Player Imprisonment with developer handholding escapes for carebears
Face of Mankind - Server regulated jailtime with crooked player police enforcement.

Those are two examples and they both are flawed, but they do exist and add a lot to both games.

Well can't say I have heard of either of those so don't know how their system works but I will take a look. Are these systems hard encoded with player choice of what parts they can use in their own lands or hardcoded by developers without players being able to set the level of law/chaos on their own land?

Added after 8 minutes:

Jail time is still a bad and boring idea. "Punishments", if any, should be quick and bloody.

8

Yes, I read your post. That's why I said jail time is a ridiculous idea. That's probably why you weren't aware of any games with that mechanic. It's just not really a mechanic that does well. It sort of works for some very niche products, but I only know of cash shop ones with jail tokens for purchase: Ashen's Empire, Conquer Online... Both terrible, terrible games.

Not heard of either of those games either but will take a look.

1 minute or 1 hour... I don't care. Bad idea.

Yeah well total immunity from any form of punishment that I can enforce on tribal land is a bad idea IMO. The point is balance. In between "I want FFA PvP without consequence" and "I don't want PvE" there is a balance.

Animal are NPCs. Non Playable Characters.

No you are wrong there. Animals are more like monsters. An NPC is something that uses the same system of creation as a player but isn't controlled by them.

A bear is a monster, a human guard is an NPC.

I think the closest we may get is tamable monsters but not NPC's

NPC guards that can be upgraded and set to attack who you want via law or individual would be much better than any jail.

Well the problem here is, if you suggest NPC guards the cry is "player controlled law enforcement" but if you ask for player controlled law enforcement it seems the cry is "NPC guards". At some point you all need to get to gether and work out what the bloody hell you want.

If Jordi ever added jail time, you'd be playing Xsyon with Hopi, a few "yeeahh jail time rocks" people, and that's it.

Google jail games.

Since you always post a "balance" mantra, throw in jail time for crafters supplying anyone who kills a person they aren't at war with, and I'll go for your idea. Deal?

Sure, but remember you could only enforce this law on land YOU own so you would be punishing YOUR crafters. I wouldn't have such a law but I don't see why you couldn't have it if you wanted.

IF you think above is balance then I can't really help you.

[JCatano]

A bear is computer controlled. It's a "character" in the game. You cannot be a bear ingame. Non Playable Character. If you have another definition... Great.

I don't care about player-controlled <insert mechanic> versus NPC controlled <insert mechanic>. Both work for me.

No, I would be punishing you for supplying a person who killed on my land. You'd be going to jail. My point with the crafting statement was to show how ridiculous it is.

No jail. I'm not even a bit worried about Jordi implementing it, anyway. I just wanted to post saying it's not a good idea, since you asked for input.

Bar and March Madness time. I suggest you people do the same.

[maelwydd]

A bear is computer controlled. It's a "character" in the game. You cannot be a bear ingame. Non Playable Character. If you have another definition... Great.

Sorry, I have been roleplaying for 29 years give or take and a bear in not an NPC unless players can also play bears, which they cannot. So a bear in NOT an NPC. It is a monster or mob. A guard is a human which CAN be played by a player so is an NPC.

I don't care about player-controlled <insert mechanic> versus NPC controlled <insert mechanic>. Both work for me.

I am confused now but will not puruse this now as it will probably end up going nowhere.

No, I would be punishing you for supplying a person who killed on my land. You'd be going to jail.

How would you punish me? I am not on your land therefore would not be applicable for punishment based on your laws. As in real life, you punish the murderer, not the kitchen knife salesman who sold them a knife set.

Think you are not getting it.

My point with the crafting statement was to show how ridiculous it is.

Well my point is, you think it is rediculous only because you don't get it how it works. To make it easier think about it in real life using the example above with the knife salesman.

No jail. I'm not even a bit worried about Jordi implementing it, anyway.

Well I am making suggestions to see if we can create a system viable. I personally think it is possible. The devs may have their own ideas but the more in the pot the better the system they choose will be hopefully.

I just wanted to post saying it's not a good idea, since you asked for input.

Well thanks for the input, not sure how useful it was because you seem to have a set idea about it and seem locked into it despite the fact it appears you don't get the idea. But thanks anyway.

[XSY001]

Starquest Online - Full Player Imprisonment with developer handholding escapes for carebears
Face of Mankind - Server regulated jailtime with crooked player police enforcement.

Those are two examples and they both are flawed, but they do exist and add a lot to both games.

Dransik/Ashen Empires has a jail system, as well. A pretty decent jail system, but still has extreemly limited appeal to anyone other than those on some kind of a crusade.

Added after 15 minutes:

Sorry, I have been roleplaying for 29 years give or take and a bear in not an NPC unless players can also play bears, which they cannot. So a bear in NOT an NPC. It is a monster or mob. A guard is a human which CAN be played by a player so is an NPC.

An NPC is a non-player character. That bear is as much a character as the guard. By your definition, a murloc cannot be used as an NPC because it's not a playable character. I think you're confusing your terms.

As to the topic, I like JC's idea of the NPC guards. In Shadowbane, we had guard dogs patrolling our village, and iirc you could set who/why they would attack. A guard system, whether PC or NPC, that allowed a group to define what they considered crimes or acts of aggression and what appropriate measures should be on their land, sounds like a great idea. There needs to be some way to define boundaries, though. This could be something as simple as an "about to enter..." message a few yards before you enter someone's territory.


Any system that allows player lawmaking is a good system should really start, though, with laws that apply only internally. It's a common love of humans to subjugate and display power over others, and it is much easier for them to get started on laws that punish or negatively impact those they do not know personally, but it is much more important to start with systems that involved restrictions and penalties on one's own people, as a much more humane path will be traveled when devising methods to control or penalize those you have to virtually look in the eyes the next days.

[maelwydd]

An NPC is a non-player character. That bear is as much a character as the guard. By your definition, a murloc cannot be used as an NPC because it's not a playable character. I think you're confusing your terms.

In pure tabletop roleplaying, anything not controlled by a player is an NPC. The DM looks at what the abilities, skills, restrictions etc are for that entity and controls their actions based on those rules.

In an mmo a bear and an guard could be clasifed as NPC's but the difference is, the guards are controlled by the players following the rules hardcoded for their use. A bear only does what it is programmed to do.

So perhaps it is a matter of terminology but what has been stated is that NPC's in the guard sence are something they do not want to do. Essentially any NPC controlled by a player. I personally wouldn't call a bear an NPC in an MMO, I would call them a monster or mob but it is a small distinction. The point is, the devs want ot stay away from player controlled NPC's...call them PCNPC's if you like lol.

As to the topic, I like JC's idea of the NPC guards. In Shadowbane, we had guard dogs patrolling our village, and iirc you could set who/why they would attack. A guard system, whether PC or NPC, that allowed a group to define what they considered crimes or acts of aggression and what appropriate measures should be on their land, sounds like a great idea. There needs to be some way to define boundaries, though. This could be something as simple as an "about to enter..." message a few yards before you enter someone's territory.

Well the rason I didn't bring in and talk about NPC's was partly because the devs have stated they wouldn't have them but also because when trying to find a balance I often hear the term "player enforced" or similar from those less likely to want a system of law. So my idea is to give players the freedom to have as little or as much control over this. These mechanics are simply tools for the players to use.

A player chooses what they want to consider a crime is.
They then determine the method of detection.
They then determine tne method of capture.
They then determine the punishment given.

If you look at both ends of the spectrum you have complete safety on one side and no safety on the other. Somewhere in the middle is a way for each side to control their area of influence but no where else.

In effect the 'complete safety' side have
Many laws
Many methods of detection
Many methods of capture
Many punishments

No safety have
No laws
No detection
No capture
No punishment

Out in the uncontrolled areas there are no laws which should please the 'no safety' group (unless they are being unreasonable) and in the land controlled by players who want 'complete safety' they have as good as you can get without being totally invulnerable. A tribe chould very well have a jail and watch towers and a huge list of laws but a determined group could still comit crimes and get away with them or even have fun during a prison break. I personally think of how much fun it would be to attempt a prison break on a fellow tribe member and am sorry that isn't possible.

Any system that allows player lawmaking is a good system should really start, though, with laws that apply only internally. It's a common love of humans to subjugate and display power over others, and it is much easier for them to get started on laws that punish or negatively impact those they do not know personally, but it is much more important to start with systems that involved restrictions and penalties on one's own people, as a much more humane path will be traveled when devising methods to control or penalize those you have to virtually look in the eyes the next days.

Well to start with these laws would only affect people on their land so it only really applies to their own people and people on their land commiting crimes. As is often quoted when FFA PvP is being discussed "You knew the server was FFA PvP so you cannot be griefed" well the same applies here...."you knew we were a lawful society and murder might put you in jail so you cannot really argue when you get caught".

Ultimately I hope the devs do look at balancing out the risk of open PvP with the reward they have stated they want. The simple equation is always risk should equal reward and when this is unbalanced it isn't fun.

[JCatano]

- I don't give 2 cents how long you've been RP'ing. NPC = Non Playable Character. Again, if you want to define it in your own way, I will, too (as I've done). This isn't tabletop.

- "At some point you all need to get to gether and work out what the bloody hell you want." Don't be confused.

- I'd punish you because Jordi would implement the mechanic (just like he'd implement your idea). Real life has no bearing in Xsyon: The Computer Game.

- Again x2. Real life has no bearing in Xsyon: The Computer Game.

- Jail isn't going to work. If it worked well, you'd see revenue killers do it. Just as full-on FFA won't work without consequences, jail isn't going to work.

- You're welcome for the input on your set and locked idea about jail time that isn't going to be implemented.

[maelwydd]

- I don't give 2 cents how long you've been RP'ing. NPC = Non Playable Character. Again, if you want to define it in your own way, I will, too (as I've done). This isn't tabletop.

- "At some point you all need to get to gether and work out what the bloody hell you want." Don't be confused.

- I'd punish you because Jordi would implement the mechanic (just like he'd implement your idea). Real life has no bearing in Xsyon: The Computer Game.

- Again x2. Real life has no bearing in Xsyon: The Computer Game.

- Jail isn't going to work. If it worked well, you'd see revenue killers do it. Just as full-on FFA won't work without consequences, jail isn't going to work.

- You're welcome for the input on your set and locked idea about jail time that isn't going to be implemented.

OK so you don't like the idea of jail.

But what system would you offer to allow a non PvP'er the ability to control their land and enforce their own laws? And as you have stated, this is not real life so no "get others to do it". I am talking about a system that lets a player set their own laws, their own means to root out a criminal and a way to punish them. I would like to hear from someone who has clear views on what willl not work as to be so clear must mean you know a way that will work.

[JCatano]

OK so you don't like the idea of jail.

But what system would you offer to allow a non PvP'er the ability to control their land and enforce their own laws? And as you have stated, this is not real life so no "get others to do it". I am talking about a system that lets a player set their own laws, their own means to root out a criminal and a way to punish them. I would like to hear from someone who has clear views on what willl not work as to be so clear must mean you know a way that will work.

You already received something because Jordi caved: A safety switch after Prelude. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt he'll ball up and change it to anything else.

Anyway, guards with upgrades and settings work for me. They punish who you want, when you want, but do not act as an unstoppable force or stick someone in a cell to sit there and do nothing... Just a mechanic to help players enforce their area.

P.S. -

You can do it on your own as a player and/or "get others to do it". That is a choice you have.

[Soulwanderer]

Jail is still a horrible idea. PvP is playing the game. Jail is not. Just because this is a sandbox doesn't mean every crappy idea will get implemented. So no, you'd don't get to put people in jail just because they get to kill you.

Anyway, guards with upgrades and settings work for me. They punish who you want, when you want, but do not act as an unstoppable force or stick someone in a cell to sit there and do nothing... Just a mechanic to help players enforce their area.

This post, with NPC guards, is one of the best ways to handle city security outside of walls/gates. They don't need to be ubertastic, and there doesn't need to be hordes of them. Just enough to discourage 1-2 people from waltzing in and killing people near the tribal totem once safe zones go away. Other than that, if you just want to sit there and weave buckets in peace then make sure you recruit some people who are going to use the armor and weapons you make to your tribe for defense.

PvP is a part of the game. Sieges will be a part of the game at some point as well. Jails are not. Read that a few times until it sinks in.