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  1. #141
    I was talking about safe totems anywhere near contested rare resources.

    Im the one that thinks in the safe totem areas, you can drop a safe totem on a rare resources just make it deplete after a while, and you said something like "No because then people would have to move their tribe and totem" or something like that.
    Which I say so what. I think all rare resources should deplete after a while too. Contested areas should have longer lasting rare resource spawns, but I believe all of them should deplete after a while to mix things up a bit.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Tons of things have changed you are nuts. What about 2 servers? What about EARLY PRELUDE WOULD REMOVE SAFE ZONES?
    Im sorry that you cant see it, and that you forgot what the game was about since day 1. But these all have changed. Heck even the features have changed. How are those resource controls?
    If you think people are crying over gates vs safe zones then clearly you still missing the point of all the PVPers.
    PVPers dont care there are a few safe areas in the game. They care that the safe areas are able to control resources ANYWHERE on the map AT any time. Full looting is NOT in the game. They care that these stupid private bins are littering the world, and that people can do whatever they want and there is NOTHING a PVPer can do other than move or deal with it.

    Safe zones should be limited to special areas, OR give PVPers zones where we can go and have contested areas. We are not asking for 100% of the map you and the carebears are. PVPers are asking for DIFFICULTY VS REWARD!!!

    When PVE gets more difficult than PVP, then they should be rewarded more, until then PVP is as far as I know one of the hardest things. When you consider losing your whole totem and all that time, fighting vs the best tactics, then the reward should be great.
    Right now killing a bear, and avoiding the 1 PVPer in the whole game isnt very difficult.

    Im done talking to you about this.

    I should come wall your totem in, and see what you think about your safe totem area then. The system is freaking bad in SOOOO many ways.

    Added after 7 minutes:



    Sorry, hunger thirst are in the game. Comfort has nothing to do with PVE.

    Book, are you trying to say Ive not thought through this and posted many ideas on how to change the system? But you get people like Jadzia that think "We need more safe areas to fix the problem with too many safe totems" They come in with knee jerk ways of fixing something which only hurt it more, and make no sense.
    I post a great system for both sides to be more than happy with what would be put into it, and the carebears want it all. "Oh if rare resources are in contested areas only then we are forced into those areas as carebears" then they cry "Well if they going to do something like that we cant agree on anything and should have 2 servers".

    They wont give 1" to try to fix the game. Worst part like I said, is that they think they want all these safety options with resources inside their safety bubble. Then when econ sucks, people are bored and everyone has 100 in every skill. They are like "Well we need more stuff to do". Its like really? Didnt we just say that your bad idea of doing all that safetly crap was killing the game?


    I will say it again, EVERY AREA SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO BE TAKEN. THERE NEEDS TO BE SAFE ZONES. I hope that is clear. Now moving on from that point. Having a safe zone in every part of the map at anytime is the problem with the system.



    Dont you understand she wants safe zones to be able to piss anyone off she wants and still be able to stick her tongue out and say "nan nah a booboo you cant hurt me". She wants all the resources at her finger tips and control them forever, without anyone stopping her in anyway. Then when she chooses to PVP, it will be on her terms and she will risk nothing.
    I'm glad you're not a programmer with some of the absurdly flawed logic you're spouting. You wouldn't last 5 minutes working for me.

    Hey everyone, lets not add any balance features due to lack of content because it may be exploited! Now there's an idea. Please!

    On some things I agree, Totems should not be able to be placed on resource nodes (grass and rock, water etc. can't be helped but it could be prevented on scrap heaps) but how is that anyones fault except how it was implemented?

    You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features. Safe zones are not a bad feature they merely allow exploits at this point in time because of the implementation and cool down features etc. were discussed on the forums to prevent possible exploits.

    You're talking like the design of these features and the subsequent possible exploits are the fault of any players. Get real.

    Bins needed permissions so tribe mates could not just steal anything. I remember all of the high value thefts and scams in EVE. Yes granted we have nothing of high value yet (soon to change) but again how is that a players fault? It's all down to design and implementation. The fact that bins maintain thier permissions in non tribe land is being fixed and still like a broken record you keep on like it's a players fault when again it's down to DESIGN, IMPLEMENTATION and or OVERSIGHT.

    Regardless of whether she believes she should be able to have a totem anywhere including near a rare resource, she is not to blame for how it is implemented. It has been clearly stated that the new areas will be contested so once again I ask how has this game been ruined by the 'carebears'? We'll have what we think we need and that is rare resources will not be able to be obtained by totems that cannot be contested and still you maintain that Jadzia is the root of all evil Clearly Jordi never listened to anyone saying that they should not be contested. The facts speak for themselves.

    Nobody but the dev team are responsible for the future of the game. We all post here with all different views and they (and only they) choose who to listen to and we have to hope on balance and merit and in keeping with the goal of the game. No player is to blame for anything that results in exploits or anything else for that matter.

    I'd be inclined to agree with some people more if they were merely pointing out where the issues are in a constructive way rather than blaming someone who is clearly not responsible for anything but having an opinion like anyone else. Nobody has to listen to it.

    Bored with the ridiculous blame game now so back to lurk mode for me.

  3. #143
    I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

    Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features.
    uhh. no. never read anything about a criminal system. Allignment system...yes. The risk of pvp is that you like die and lose your stuff. the risk of crafting is OH NO I FAILED THE HOOOOORRRRRRROOOOOOOORRRRRR. Using jadzia as a reference is like preaching to your own personal choir...we over here on the violent side see her as whack in a carebear extremist kinda way.

    additionally you are misquoting her...since if you were not defending her, she would correct your statement and remind you that the devs said there will be contested areas in the expansion areas...not that all the expansion area would be contested...in fact she is adamently opposed to having the entire expansion area bein a pvp playground.

    re: blame. ultimately the devs are to blame for the state of the game. However. the playerbase in the beta phase is also to blame. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was very little conversation (proportionately) pre feb 2011 discussing the pvp rule sets,mechanics, etc...in fact the existing playerbase was horribly surprised when 'we' came in droves. Anyway, the fact that there was not the constant hollering that 'this shit needs to get fixed before this gets released', combined with the intial dev approach of 'well get to combat in a bit' leads me to believe that tthe player base's input did not provide sufficient justification for the devs to bump the issue on their priority list. *shrug*

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

    Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.
    This. We can brainstorm as much as we like but seems he plans something else.


    re: blame. ultimately the devs are to blame for the state of the game. However. the playerbase in the beta phase is also to blame. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was very little conversation (proportionately) pre feb 2011 discussing the pvp rule sets,mechanics, etc...in fact the existing playerbase was horribly surprised when 'we' came in droves. Anyway, the fact that there was not the constant hollering that 'this shit needs to get fixed before this gets released', combined with the intial dev approach of 'well get to combat in a bit' leads me to believe that tthe player base's input did not provide sufficient justification for the devs to bump the issue on their priority list. *shrug*
    You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol
    These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    I'm glad you're not a programmer with some of the absurdly flawed logic you're spouting. You wouldn't last 5 minutes working for me.
    Likely the most true statement in this whole post. As I tend to not work for people that are inferior to me, I tend to teach them and lead them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    Hey everyone, lets not add any balance features due to lack of content because it may be exploited! Now there's an idea. Please!
    Im not saying to not add features because they can be exploited. Im saying dont add features with exploits. Meaning, if a feature CAN be exploited dont add it, without fixing the way it can be exploited.
    If you add a money system, but people can dupe it. Dont you think that adding the money system would do more harm than good unless you can fix a dupe? If something is hard to exploit, and would be rarely exploited sure add a good system.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    On some things I agree, Totems should not be able to be placed on resource nodes (grass and rock, water etc. can't be helped but it could be prevented on scrap heaps) but how is that anyones fault except how it was implemented?
    Sorry I must have missed where I was saying it was the players fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    You talk about risk vs reward but as Jadzia pointed out, the risk has not been implemented for PVP either in the form of a criminal system which has always been on the list of features. Safe zones are not a bad feature they merely allow exploits at this point in time because of the implementation and cool down features etc. were discussed on the forums to prevent possible exploits.
    Risk isnt put into place for PVP? Odd, I died the other day and lost a full set of high QL bone armor, a VHQ blade and some other stuff. Guess I must have missed the bears taking that stuff from me in PVE.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    You're talking like the design of these features and the subsequent possible exploits are the fault of any players. Get real.
    Again Im not blaming the players. I do blame people saying that a system is good when it allows such a clear way to exploit.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    Bins needed permissions so tribe mates could not just steal anything. I remember all of the high value thefts and scams in EVE. Yes granted we have nothing of high value yet (soon to change) but again how is that a players fault? It's all down to design and implementation. The fact that bins maintain thier permissions in non tribe land is being fixed and still like a broken record you keep on like it's a players fault when again it's down to DESIGN, IMPLEMENTATION and or OVERSIGHT.
    I agree that bins need permissions for inside a tribe area. Im talking about outside the tribe area. Sorry for the confusion. Again not blaming players. Only upset at players when players try to back up and stand behind a system that is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    Regardless of whether she believes she should be able to have a totem anywhere including near a rare resource, she is not to blame for how it is implemented. It has been clearly stated that the new areas will be contested so once again I ask how has this game been ruined by the 'carebears'? We'll have what we think we need and that is rare resources will not be able to be obtained by totems that cannot be contested and still you maintain that Jadzia is the root of all evil Clearly Jordi never listened to anyone saying that they should not be contested. The facts speak for themselves.
    I think you dont understand what Ive been saying. I agree that people should have totems near rare resources. I just dont think they should have safe totems. Heck, I even want to allow safe totems on rare resources in the safe totem areas (not contested or expansion areas), but allow them to deplete quickly. She says no safe totems on rare resources at all.
    I believe the game is being ruined by carebears not thinking through the problems. Coming up with knee jerk ways to fix a problem. Like Jadzias fix to the problem of too many safe totems that are not used anymore hogging up the area, idea is add more safe totem area. Its so sad, its funny.
    I have no idea what you are talking about the contested totems for.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    Nobody but the dev team are responsible for the future of the game. We all post here with all different views and they (and only they) choose who to listen to and we have to hope on balance and merit and in keeping with the goal of the game. No player is to blame for anything that results in exploits or anything else for that matter.
    If you feel that players have no impact on the game, and its future, well I dont know how to explain it other than "You are wrong".
    Also about the "They choose who they listen too" I agree, but unlike the PVPer group of people. Carebears will email, bug, whine and cry to the devs until its changed. Squeaky wheel gets the oil. Only so many emails you can take before you start to think "Maybe this is really what the players want" then it gets put into place and well as you can see with the state of the server pop, and who is playing just how well that has worked out for them. Also look at what people are saying. "Im bored", "Nothing has meaning".
    Im not saying Jadzia is exploiting, and Ive never called her one. She has called me one. So Im not really sure what you mean here. If you mean that players are not to blame for ideas they come up with that are put into game and then people exploit them? Well I can blame them for not thinking a system through. When I saw the exploit ahead of time and warned them, and they say things like "No it wont be exploited" or something. Then yes players, and devs would be to blame.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    I'd be inclined to agree with some people more if they were merely pointing out where the issues are in a constructive way rather than blaming someone who is clearly not responsible for anything but having an opinion like anyone else. Nobody has to listen to it.

    Bored with the ridiculous blame game now so back to lurk mode for me.
    Ive made many posts without blaming anyone. You should try reading those. I call it like I see it. If blame needs to be placed then it does. I dont really care about blame unless people are trying to make the same mistake again. If someone comes up with a bad idea and its put into the game, and they go "Ya my bad, I didnt see that" or something like that, you wont seem be harping on blaming them. Would just get to work on fixing the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    I't thinking the rare resources we are anticipating are not the kind that Jordi is planning. Not with the current in-testing system anyway. It appears he is distributing the resources gained via foraging and scavenging and sub-sequent sorting, and making some rare in one area and others rare in others. I think we are arguing over static, visible nodes of some sort of resource...gold, silver, and gems to mine, iron or copper ore, extra fertile earth for crops, etc. whereas those are not on the table yet.

    Basically we will have the same junkpiles, but different areas will provide different items from those junkpiles.
    Yes, Drevar I think you are right here, but I think there is 2 things Jordi is doing. Changing of how items are found making some items more rare and local, and adding in new resources that will give bonuses to crafting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    This. We can brainstorm as much as we like but seems he plans something else.




    You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol
    These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.
    Its not about being Darkfall, its about NOT ABLE TO TAKE A TOTEM EVER, and safe zones anywhere at anytime.

    Why would you need "defensive" structures if there are safe totems? You even said it yourself you dont build walls because you have all the safety you need.

    I have read those threads, and the way you are explaining them, and Xsyon is a nice spin on it.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    You are very wrong about this, Dub. I bet you haven't checked the old threads a year ago. This has always been a very hot topic and we had like 50 pages long threads arguing about it. There were PvP oriented players from the first day who were asking for safe zones being removed, the game to become a war oriented one. Read those threads and then come and say that this topic was neglected, lol
    These debates always got out of hand after a while, and Xsyon stepped in...every time he assured the players that the game is not supposed to be a Darkfall-like FFA wargame, players will be able to flee from PvP and safe zones will be there till we can build up our defensive structures. This is not something the players forced on the devs...this is their own goal, to give the tools to both sides to enjoy the game.
    yes i have read the threads. and they amount to the same thing: a couple / few pvp centric folks being shouted down by a legion of hate-pvp folks. they are 50 pages long because each pvp point results in 10-15, YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID WHY DO YOU WANT THIS TO BE ANOTHER MO OR DF DIAF MF!!!!. or something to that effect. And those threads were pretty basic in their concept...the pvp folks got shouted down over very general gameplay concepts...The discussion never made it past, 'what is pvp in xsyon...' It never got to 'how you pvp in xsyon', 'why do you pvp in xsyon', much less the finer points of the now ubiquitous 'how do we balance pvpr and non pvprs in xsyon'.

    So yes, you had some discussions where some pvp folks through out some ideas, and you (the non pvp masses) told them how stupid their ideas were then congratulated yourself on how smart you were, then jordi would come in and make his usual vague statement about 'how things will be' that everyone can read whatever they want into...and voila. Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubanka View Post
    yes i have read the threads. and they amount to the same thing: a couple / few pvp centric folks being shouted down by a legion of hate-pvp folks. they are 50 pages long because each pvp point results in 10-15, YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID WHY DO YOU WANT THIS TO BE ANOTHER MO OR DF DIAF MF!!!!. or something to that effect. And those threads were pretty basic in their concept...the pvp folks got shouted down over very general gameplay concepts...The discussion never made it past, 'what is pvp in xsyon...' It never got to 'how you pvp in xsyon', 'why do you pvp in xsyon', much less the finer points of the now ubiquitous 'how do we balance pvpr and non pvprs in xsyon'.

    So yes, you had some discussions where some pvp folks through out some ideas, and you (the non pvp masses) told them how stupid their ideas were then congratulated yourself on how smart you were, then jordi would come in and make his usual vague statement about 'how things will be' that everyone can read whatever they want into...and voila. Here we are, talking to pvp folks that you can't outshout, and don't go away
    Which is the whole reason we are still having this discussion. Poor discussion back then

  9. #149
    Never quite understood the "squeaky wheel gets the grease thing..." I mean, is it supposed to be an insult or put down of some kind? Often seems like it's a pvp-centric player talking about holistic-centric players being a squeaky wheel... but then look at how much focus combat is getting from the devs at the moment? I don't quite get it.

    If there indeed were so many people not into a pvp-only focus during beta, that should probably tell you something. Those were people who stuck with the game for a very long time and must have seen something they'd enjoy in it. They stayed through delayed launches on a number of occasions.

    Conversely, you have a number of folks who step in at the last minute and expect to be catered to immediately... and then have the gall to blame the people that stuck it out for the year prior to it?

    My understanding is that Hopi used to be a very peaceful tribe before Armand took it over no? As a peaceful tribe, they attracted hundreds of players... but clearly a peaceful playstyle just isn't viable! Makes no sense folks.

    I think a number of the year-long beta testers might have left due to the week-long lag issue after launch, and the rather massive roll-back that occurred when they were working on what was to be their permanent characters rather than characters they knew would be wiped.
    A number of others left when the last minute folks did come in droves after, or just prior-to launch because let's face it: People who come in at the last minute and wipe their crap complaining all over the place aren't fun to hang out with.

    As far as pvpers not going away... most already did. Unlike the crafters that stuck it out for over a year, they lasted what? 3 weeks of not getting exactly what they wanted, or what they wanted to hear, before they stomped their little feet, started insulting everyone and left??

    My first post on the forums (or just about) was referring to the old Jumpgate classic and what happened there when a handful of "we are uber killers!!" people came in and wreaked havoc. Server emptied and they were left to kill each other if they could find each other. I pointed out I didn't want to see that here and uhm... found someone to kill lately?

    Your foresight is astounding.

    It's also rather funny to hear MrDDT say he's not blaming players when many of his posts reference the evil carebears as the cause of all things bad... seriously, and again, makes no sense.

    Unfortunate if people don't like to hear another DF isn't really what was wanted before you got here.

    Xsyon also has stated he wanted to mold the game in accordance with the types of players he attracted. This may turn out to be a problem when he attracts players that come in after a year-long beta. Don't like anything they see about the game (your own words Dub), complain profusely, and leave before development switches to deal with the NEW type of player suddenly attracted to a game they wanted but wasn't there.

    The notion that with safe zones a pvp player has no choice but to move... hypocrites much? That's exactly what is told to someone who doesn't feel like pvping 24/7 by those who do want to do nothing but running around killing other people, dominating other people to compensate for whatever, and destroying what other people have worked on.

    Why have walls if there are safe zones? Safe zones were there to allow for the building of defenses... dense much? Of course, those defenses must be destructible!! So you can better impose your will on others... otherwise they can just move right? Brilliant.

  10. #150
    Very good post, Book.

    Edit: Deleted my post, nvm pointless arguing again.

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