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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubanka View Post
    how many times do we have to rehash this conversation.

    all sides agree there needs to be the quintessential raison d'etre.

    however one side believes that conflict should be instrumental in determining use, value, and rarity of items...it's not the whole pie, but it is a good 20-30% of it.

    the other side believes that no one should have to be involved in any type of conflict, unless that want to, and thus believe that conflict should be a cupcake sitting off to the side, while the pie is made up of non-conflict related needs and desires.

    Group A: Conflict is in the pie. Group B: it's not.

    Jordi has said that he wants one pie where group A and B can coexist...which is problematic because group A and B want different games.

    I'm in group A (duh)
    - I want walls to do something...have purpose...like protect me. Protect my stuff...but i don't need them because my home is safe because of some invisible hand of protection.
    - I'd love for building to have purpose, hold more stuff, improve quality of crafting, reduce regen time, etc...but why do i need stuff?
    - I'd love armor and weapons to have meaning...for armor and weapon smiths to be revered and be able to command extraordinary prices for their wares...but do i care if i don't actually need to fight for anything
    - I could go on and on and on and on (i have in the past).

    /shrug this is rapidly becoming one of those what could have been if only products.

    Devs need to figure out what they want their baby to be when it grows up, and quickly...and no, it can't be a firefighter, a jet pilot and a neurosurgeon at the same time.
    My best guess is that they will bring in the PvP with the end of "prelude", once the original feature list is finished (Jordi said original feature list would be in for April 15th 2010 launch date, and still theres a huge amount of features on that list missing. STILL, 15 months later), along with their first attempt at advertising for the game which is no longer in its "prelude" state.

    Seriously though, why do walls exist in this game?

    Added after 7 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubanka View Post
    what defines value?
    - Rarity?
    - Difficulty?
    - Risk?
    - Utility?
    - Demand?
    - Specialization?

    you can't just 'make something valuable'. Since value is a combination of the elements above (and probably a bunch that i missed). the more elements you attribute to something the more valuable it is. THos with few elements will have little value. Without the right combination of elements, will have little value.
    rare+risk+utility=VALUE!
    rare+rish <> VALUE
    demand+rare=value
    demand+rare+risk=VALUE
    etc. etc. etc.

    you can't just 'add value'...since value is a summation of a number of different components.
    value is simple.

    usefulness + obtain-ability = value

    usefulness = how many reasons to use and how much reason to use

    obtain-ability = how long, how hard, etc it is to obtain item

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    So you are saying armors and weapons will have purpose if you can use them to fight over absolutely useless buildings and towns ? Why would anyone bother to fight for something that does nothing apart of looking nice ?

    A sim is a good game imo. But Xsyon is not a sim, since in a sim game everything has use and purpose. That what we need here too.

    DDT, no one ever asked for a game where they can craft and build stuffs which are absolutely useless. Read the OP, he says he would like to PvP but why would he bother if the stuffs he can get do nothing.

    If there was NPC town raids, I wouldn't bother to protect my stuffs....since they are worthless. The simple fact that you have to fight for something doesn't give value for it. Add value first, then it will give meaning to the fight, and will give meaning to crafting/building.

    What makes something worthless vs not worthless?
    Answer that please. Because according to you, nothing will ever have worth or value.
    Right now walls have no value, but add in PVP over a totem and POOF walls have a huge value to stop people. Same with NPC attacking. Walls will have a huge value if they can stave off an attack from NPCs or players.

    You say you wouldnt protect your town? Well what would make you protect it? Lets say they make it so your town gives 2000x healing speed. Is it worth to protect then? Well why would you need healing speed? Seems to me you dont need anything.
    You have said this before in game also.

    You are right now saying that people that play WOW dont need armor, you know why? Because what will it do? To get better armor? For what? There is no reason to play at all in WOW because why get better armor or get the best armor?


    People make goals, and clearly you have no goals. If you did have a goal (other than theory like "I would like to have fun") you would understand that you need items to do it. IE. Say you want to make the best bone armor. Well you would need the best tools, high skill and high resources.
    Well that takes the best base resources for tools, high skill and other best tools.
    Plus you would need other things like to eat to get the best chance so you would need food, you would need to train in a fairly safe area (or at least unmolested to get high skill), you will also need to wear your tribal colors. So would the tool maker, and the resource gather.

    Your problem is you have no goals. Your goals are in theory.

    Problem with Xsyon is they create no strife. No one is worried about death, or hunger, or fear of getting things taken. So they are building a sim. The only goals that work right now are "Looks cool" type of goals. No goals of being the best trader, well known murder, or being a hunter of very foul beasts that are very hard.
    They only have 2 things. Be the best crafter (for no other reason but to be the best), to be the best builder for no other reason but that it would look cool or be cool to do, and build a very cool town. No other types.


    Items right now have a huge value IF you add in other things. Like what if bears were 10x harder and they attacked you all the time in your towns. Well you would need walls, and outside your walls you would need good armor and weapons.

    See how value changed with 1 simple thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Usage (perhaps thats what you call utility). Rarity, risk, difficulty etc can increase value...but at first the item/building HAS to have some usage. It has to give something like comfort, bonus, teleport opportunity, crafting station...something. Demand adds value, but people demand goods which are actually useful.

    Pure vanity items may have value as well, if they are very rare and looks really good. But Xsyon has nothing like that.
    What are you talking about? Xsyon has TONS of pure vanity items.
    Look at all the cloth items. Look at all the different types of leather armors. They have many things like posts and stuff too. No idea what you are talking about with that.

    Items have uses. Problem is there is nothing past the use. Hammer, is used for crafting stuff. But the stuff you craft doesnt give you much of a bonus nor is there any strife.

  3. #43
    It's sad really when a thread is 3/4 full of the same two people bilndly screaming the same things at each other that they've been screaming for the past what, like year and a half?

    This thread has turned into the same argument that's been going on since day 1.

    PVE carebears won, game died, time to move to a greener pasture I suppose.

    I'm just sorry they tried to make ATITD 2.0, could've been a much better game.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Ok so look at it like this. Lets say they add in local resources that add 10x damage modifier to weapons. In the current system it would be worthless. Because why would you need it? Just like why do you need walls? Why do you need armor?
    You've proved my point. Those things are not yet in game and until they are PVP is rather pointless. You argue for the sake of arguing because you think you're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Pointless.

    It really is as simple as we need more rare items, we need contested areas and we need balance in what we already have. Just as in the thread about scavenging, you argued based upon what you see works and doesn't work from a viewpoint of having 100 in various skills. You do not argue from a balanced position. I am completely sick and tired of this pathetic childish argument about PVP'rs and carebears when the issues are fundamentally nothing to do with that and never have been. Lack of features, balance and reason to do anything are and always have been the issues, you just choose to spin it to your viewpoint.

    Despite hours of scavenging on level 96, still no blades whatsoever. If someone on a high level can't find them then there's no point levelling. If we had the ability to repair, it wouldn't be an issue. So now I rarely use my saws. Until these gaps in the game are filled in and balance adjusted, the game has little or no meaning and before you start accusing me of having no imagination, I design software all the time and have plenty of imagination. Walls, we only recently got gates so until then were meaningless. Why fish or forage, you can do too much with no food or drink so as any effect to be meaningless. Why explore and travel to other zones to scavenge when we can't carry the stuff back, yet.

    The devs decided not to open up the new land yet most scrap heaps have inactive totems on them or next to them because totem decay is still not resolved. Why can't we just have inactive totems have no effect after a certain time period and so you have a two step removal process.

    Why fight over a totem, what do I gain? How do I defend a totem if I'm on holiday? Lots of things that have yet to even be considered. You basically want a game that caters for those that are logged in for excessive amounts of hours.

    Bottom line, what's missing? reason.

    Give me a rare resource node and I'll fight over it. Howver that still isn't about fighting over a totem because you wouldn't stick a totem near a rare node because then it will affect scav
    Then were talking about contested totems. when will they be in?
    The only gain to attacking a totem is access to the bins. What do they currently contain that makes it worthwhile? nothing. Saw blades maybe...

    We are still a ways off from the game having any reason to PVP and yet still you bleat on about the same old arguments. I nor anyone else has any control over the features or timelines that the devs care to pursue.

    So what do we gain with removal of safe zones? absolutely nothing.
    What do we gain with more PVP features? absolutely nothing.

    Features still in dev need to be completed first. We would not be fighting over totems anyway, totems are meaningless in terms of PVP. We'll be fighting over rare resources which would be contested totems. People would have to travel to them and thus be open to attack. Not enough common sense is being applied to this discussion and until it is and some thought is also given to new players as well, this will just be people arguing about what they want from thier perspective given thier current skills.

    So do I agree with not expanding the land mass? no, add the rare resource nodes and a reason to use them such as boosts to everything made that make a substantial difference and this will bring the community together more than having a smaller land mass so were closer to each other. Or add the rare resource nodes to the existing land mass too. That's a reason to PVP. There are many decisions I disagree with in the direction of the game but I do not boil it down to a simplistic, PVP vs Carebear view because it isn't, it is a combination of factors that have either no balance or reason. The vociferous minority will always have thier opinions and I'm fine with that and only hope the devs are being much more reasoned than many forum posters are.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    There is no reason to play at all in WOW because why get better armor or get the best armor?
    This is exactly why I don't play WoW or other themepark games. I don't see the point in playing a game to get better armor only to be able to get even better armor. Lol. More credit to the ones who still can enjoy it.
    But at least armors do make a huge difference in WoW.

    Problem with Xsyon is they create no strife. No one is worried about death, or hunger, or fear of getting things taken. So they are building a sim. The only goals that work right now are "Looks cool" type of goals. No goals of being the best trader, well known murder, or being a hunter of very foul beasts that are very hard.
    They only have 2 things. Be the best crafter (for no other reason but to be the best), to be the best builder for no other reason but that it would look cool or be cool to do, and build a very cool town. No other types.


    Items right now have a huge value IF you add in other things. Like what if bears were 10x harder and they attacked you all the time in your towns. Well you would need walls, and outside your walls you would need good armor and weapons.
    This is not the first time when I get the feeling that you can't read or can't understand what you read. I really don't mean this as an insult, simply just an observation. That you wrote here is the same thing that I'm saying...so why are you arguing then ? There is no reason to build apart of that towns look cool, no reason to craft apart of being the best crafter, I said add monsters that attack towns and there you go you will need walls...but at first the buildings should have some usage to be worth to be protected.

    What are you talking about? Xsyon has TONS of pure vanity items.
    Look at all the cloth items. Look at all the different types of leather armors. They have many things like posts and stuff too. No idea what you are talking about with that.
    Again, the same problem. You don't read what I wrote or don't understand it. I didn't say Xsyon has no vanity items...I said it has no vanity items which are rare and looks really good. Actually nothing looks really good in Xsyon...especially on female characters. Every armor look ugly. No reason to desire it.

    Items have uses. Problem is there is nothing past the use. Hammer, is used for crafting stuff. But the stuff you craft doesnt give you much of a bonus nor is there any strife.
    I'm glad you agree with me. This is what I keep saying in this whole thread, that crafted items and buildings have no use, they don't give bonuses, thus crafting them is pointless.

    Seems to me you dont need anything. You have said this before in game also.
    This made me wonder. I've never talked to you in game, I never talk on global chat. So when and where did I say this in game ? I have a feeling that you mistake me with someone else.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyI View Post
    You've proved my point. Those things are not yet in game and until they are PVP is rather pointless. You argue for the sake of arguing because you think you're always right and everyone else is always wrong. Pointless.

    It really is as simple as we need more rare items, we need contested areas and we need balance in what we already have. Just as in the thread about scavenging, you argued based upon what you see works and doesn't work from a viewpoint of having 100 in various skills. You do not argue from a balanced position. I am completely sick and tired of this pathetic childish argument about PVP'rs and carebears when the issues are fundamentally nothing to do with that and never have been. Lack of features, balance and reason to do anything are and always have been the issues, you just choose to spin it to your viewpoint.

    Despite hours of scavenging on level 96, still no blades whatsoever. If someone on a high level can't find them then there's no point levelling. If we had the ability to repair, it wouldn't be an issue. So now I rarely use my saws. Until these gaps in the game are filled in and balance adjusted, the game has little or no meaning and before you start accusing me of having no imagination, I design software all the time and have plenty of imagination. Walls, we only recently got gates so until then were meaningless. Why fish or forage, you can do too much with no food or drink so as any effect to be meaningless. Why explore and travel to other zones to scavenge when we can't carry the stuff back, yet.

    The devs decided not to open up the new land yet most scrap heaps have inactive totems on them or next to them because totem decay is still not resolved. Why can't we just have inactive totems have no effect after a certain time period and so you have a two step removal process.

    Why fight over a totem, what do I gain? How do I defend a totem if I'm on holiday? Lots of things that have yet to even be considered. You basically want a game that caters for those that are logged in for excessive amounts of hours.

    Bottom line, what's missing? reason.

    Give me a rare resource node and I'll fight over it. Howver that still isn't about fighting over a totem because you wouldn't stick a totem near a rare node because then it will affect scav
    Then were talking about contested totems. when will they be in?
    The only gain to attacking a totem is access to the bins. What do they currently contain that makes it worthwhile? nothing. Saw blades maybe...

    We are still a ways off from the game having any reason to PVP and yet still you bleat on about the same old arguments. I nor anyone else has any control over the features or timelines that the devs care to pursue.

    So what do we gain with removal of safe zones? absolutely nothing.
    What do we gain with more PVP features? absolutely nothing.

    Features still in dev need to be completed first. We would not be fighting over totems anyway, totems are meaningless in terms of PVP. We'll be fighting over rare resources which would be contested totems. People would have to travel to them and thus be open to attack. Not enough common sense is being applied to this discussion and until it is and some thought is also given to new players as well, this will just be people arguing about what they want from thier perspective given thier current skills.

    So do I agree with not expanding the land mass? no, add the rare resource nodes and a reason to use them such as boosts to everything made that make a substantial difference and this will bring the community together more than having a smaller land mass so were closer to each other. Or add the rare resource nodes to the existing land mass too. That's a reason to PVP. There are many decisions I disagree with in the direction of the game but I do not boil it down to a simplistic, PVP vs Carebear view because it isn't, it is a combination of factors that have either no balance or reason. The vociferous minority will always have thier opinions and I'm fine with that and only hope the devs are being much more reasoned than many forum posters are.

    There are tons of rare resources. What are you talking about? You already said it yourself. Saw blades, human bones, some of the cloths, high QL stuff (supreme, or master QL of some types of stuff). I dont know where you are getting that there are not rare items in game.

    I agree it is a combination of factors, however, a HUGE one is the PVP vs carebear issue. If you added in totem take overs RIGHT now with ALL the current systems in place. You would find needs for SOOOOOOO many things.
    Owning lands, and just the fact you can take them from people is more than enough to spur on wars and PVP. Many of the lands are in prime spots for trade and basic resources that people would be more than happy to fight to take from someone or defend to not lose it. Not even counting all the effort of building it they would want to defend it.

    I agree add in contested rare resources that can be controlled and taken over would be another boon for giving items worth. So with these 2 changes, and ZERO changes to items bonuses themselves, you would have HUGE value changes. Econ would jump also.

    Added after 8 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    This is exactly why I don't play WoW or other themepark games. I don't see the point in playing a game to get better armor only to be able to get even better armor. Lol. More credit to the ones who still can enjoy it.
    But at least armors do make a huge difference in WoW.
    Armor makes a huge difference here. So I dont see your point. Try wearing junk QL bone armor vs Supreme bone armor. Its like 2x better in some cases 3x better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    This is not the first time when I get the feeling that you can't read or can't understand what you read. I really don't mean this as an insult, simply just an observation. That you wrote here is the same thing that I'm saying...so why are you arguing then ? There is no reason to build apart of that towns look cool, no reason to craft apart of being the best crafter, I said add monsters that attack towns and there you go you will need walls...but at first the buildings should have some usage to be worth to be protected.
    You are saying items have no value, yet they do already, problem is other strife issues. You are saying change bonuses on items to make them more of a value. But right now giving a hammer 10x the effect isnt going to make it used more or wanted more. However, adding in strife would make the value go up. You believe adding bonuses and effect = added value, which it does IF there were end reasons to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Again, the same problem. You don't read what I wrote or don't understand it. I didn't say Xsyon has no vanity items...I said it has no vanity items which are rare and looks really good. Actually nothing looks really good in Xsyon...especially on female characters. Every armor look ugly. No reason to desire it.
    Rare is a relative term. How many supreme sets of South Camp armor have you seen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    I'm glad you agree with me. This is what I keep saying in this whole thread, that crafted items and buildings have no use, they don't give bonuses, thus crafting them is pointless.
    I didnt say building or crafted stuff have no bonuses or are pointless. Im saying the bonuses are minor, and without strife worth almost nothing.
    You are the ones confused. Bonuses do not have a value when there is no end goal to it.
    If a had a one of a kind hammer that made wooden needles 1000000x better than other hammers, that hammer would still be of low value, because needles are not needed and are very easy to make.
    Now if needles were in high demand. Then sure it would be great and have tons of value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    This made me wonder. I've never talked to you in game, I never talk on global chat. So when and where did I say this in game ? I have a feeling that you mistake me with someone else.
    You have talked to me in game, and you do talk in global sometimes.

  7. #47
    Fights would give purpose for armors and weapons...but at first you need something that is worth to fight for. But I've said this several times to you so I'm done with it.

    Rare is a relative term. How many supreme sets of South Camp armor have you seen?
    I have one, and I crafted some to my friends. Not rare at all. Plus it looks awful on female characters

    You have talked to me in game, and you do talk in global sometimes.
    Never. Now I'm sure you mistake me with someone else, and I'm pretty sure you don't even know my ingame name.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzia View Post
    Fights would give purpose for armors and weapons...but at first you need something that is worth to fight for. But I've said this several times to you so I'm done with it.


    I have one, and I crafted some to my friends. Not rare at all. Plus it looks awful on female characters


    Never. Now I'm sure you mistake me with someone else, and I'm pretty sure you don't even know my ingame name.

    Sorry, but hard to debate with someone that just flat out lies over and over. Good luck with your carebear game and failure to admit it over and over that its harming the game.

    Haha made some supreme sets of South Camp armor haha.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Sorry, but hard to debate with someone that just flat out lies over and over. Good luck with your carebear game and failure to admit it over and over that its harming the game.

    Haha made some supreme sets of South Camp armor haha.
    I never lie. Not my style.
    Not supreme set. South Camp set, supreme looks the same, we were talking about vanity items so stats don't matter, do they. I still wonder who did you talk to who you though was me.

  10. #50
    Why is there a thread for this? You guys do realize they have a dedicated developer for combat mechanics and AI. They can work on things in parallel so stop asking something to be put on hold that is 75% done or else nothing in this game will be in a satisfactory state.

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