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Thread: Needed Tweak

  1. #21
    Well one thing that can be done is to is to implement activities that would have a similar reward/time. Most MMOs seem to go to the extreme and have it so that quests give so much exp that people only quest to level and don't even bother killing NPCs outside of quests. Instead of that, since to many people that feels too linear, I'd have quests that didn't follow an overall story and had various gameplay mechanics, like, tower defense mechanics, rts mechanics, standard MMO mechanics, etc. That way it keeps things "fresh." But if it takes the average person 30 minutes to complete a mission and they gain 1000 exp, then it should take the same character about 30 minutes to gain 1000 exp just grinding mobs similar to what they'd encounter in a mission. It'd never be perfect, but as long as it's close I figure players would have choices. If they can log in for a few minutes, they might go grind a couple mobs. If they have more time, then they might want to do a mission or two.

    What I'd like, and I know it'd be hard to balance, is dual advancement system. Lately I've been playing some offline sandbox games like Red Faction Guerilla and Red Dead Redemption, and one of the things I noticed is that they eschew the exp grind in favor of obtaining new equipment. I think it'd be pretty cool if there was a twitch based mmo that had a robust skilll and item systems. Instead of skills and items making your character insanely overpowered, you'd have more options with how you want to build your character because even though you'd have benefits, and increasing benefits so you feel like you are advancing, there'd also be trade-offs. You might start with a skill that makes you deal more damage with swords, but at the cost of swing slower and having no armor penetration. Then, as you level up, you'll open up skills that allow you to train into dealing extra damage with a sword, at the cost of a slower swing speed, but there would be less penalty to armor penetration. Items would work in the same way. And while things would get stronger, they wouldn't get too strong. I'd have it so that you got "stronger" by training into a different "role." You might start as a fleet swordsman, but then train into a heavy armor two-handed axe guy that can take huge damage, dish huge damage, but be slow as heck.

    I figure that with a skill system like this, players could be given points to use on equipping skills while in "town." That way players can train everything on one character, but they wouldn't be able to be everything at any one time. To balance this with crafting, I'd make it so that there were a ton of craft skills and crafting was more of a mini-game, similar to fighting mobs or something.

    So what I think, is that reducing the feeling of grinding, devs have to do a few things. The first is to give players different choices with how to "level" and make each choice give, as close to possible on average amongst different players, the same reward/time; have many different skills that help define what you want to do with your character, but where the skills give players more options (with trade-offs) instead of raw power; and give players many different options with regards to how they would like to equip their character at any one time to enhance their role or balance out some of their short-comings.

  2. #22
    Xsyon Citizen Gamefreak's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I 100% agree with your first paragraph, but it might work. Your second paragraph would be nearly impossible for Jordi to code with his current financial situation and time constraints. It's a good idea, but it's just not that feasible for what he has for a development team and what he has for time. EDIT: Due to how the last paragraph was written, I did not understand portions of it. Revision is that I do not agree with most of it. Namely the stuff including part 2.

  3. #23
    The last paragraph is pretty much a summation of what I wrote in the first three paragraphs.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamefreak View Post
    I don't want the game to have new players on the same level as veteran players as soon as they start up the game, as this is what you mean by the nerf hammer. In contrast, I don't want to spend three days clicking the same button to make bricks to grind up masonry skill.

    Normally MMORPGs ease the pain of grinds by putting out quests that immerse the player in the game, and at the same time level them more than just slaughtering the same monster repeatedly. The whole point of a game is to relieve stress and have fun. I'm not going to judge anyone if they think making thousands of bricks, wooden posts, baskets and or other materials is fun. It is, however, incredibly boring for just about everyone else.

    If this immersion cannot be provided, then this game will have great difficulties holding on it it's player base. It will likely follow the same fate as mortal online; a slow death. The whole point of a MMORPG is to immerse the player in the game, and by doing repetitive tasks all day long, it feels more like a second job than immersion.

    This is what I'm talking about.....where as I made bricks to actually build a project, you see it as a way to "Grind Up" masonry, and make it a chore. I guess it can be made less clicky, but the mind set wont change on what or how it's used. If they made it so you could make 1000 bricks with one click...you would still make enough thousands of bricks to level up, not just to make projects.

    And I didnt mean "making bricks" was how I was having fun playing. I mean I play.....a typical day would be to start off fishing...to get food for the day, then build up more on the terraforming project and after awhile, go scavanging to obtain some non-crafted items for use or trade. Next day may be fishing, then off to explore and trade with other tribes etc....that is what I mean by "I'm having fun".

    And just for the record, incase it wasnt clear...I absolutely DO NOT want a first day player to be as good as a several month vet, if they're training same fields of interest.

    I guess we can talk about this at great length...maybe we can come up with solution/suggestions for Jooky. But we need to make suggestions that are actually do-able within the time/resource constraints that the Devs have at their disposal. Or at least can possibly be implemented later, after game is going well.

    lol, so here's my first couple ....

    1. Make it so you equip a tool when selected (like RV for those who played). That would reduce the amount of clicking per item. (like for bricks you'd have a chisel and hammer equiped, no need to reselect them next brick)

    2. Break up some crafting patterns, so only two tools are needed at a time. (example: when making a leather hat....equip scissors and measure to cut a hat pattern from leather......then equip a punch and measure to prepare the hat pattern for assembly.....then you have patterns ready to be made into hats.....equip thread and needle to contruct the leather hat pattern into a leather hat.)


    I hope that after launch, the Devs will be able to turn some of their attention to one particular area at a time, to refine or even slightly revamp it. But we all know that people will be pushing for "More Content" because we see it in every game. The "Race to the top" crowd will have done that, been there, and be clammering for more.


    EDIT: I have noticed that Jooky has said in several posts that he will look at and consider some changes for some of the stuff already in and under construction, which makes me happy

  5. #25
    I also do not think that a first day player should be as good as a several month vet, but there has to be something in place to at least let the new player be able to play the game without getting completely steam-rolled by vets. A lot of changes that the Darkfall developers have been implementing is a direct consequence of having extremely powerful veterans relative to very weak new players. Heck, when I started playing I got completely owned by a vet. I think he killed me in 3 or 4 hits whereas my hit barely dented his health bar. I don't mind vets dealing more damage and having more health and armor and so on. It's an RPG and people will expect their overall power to increase, but at some point it's just too much and it drives people away from even trying the game. At least in Eve it doesn't matter if you have 10 million skill points and I only have 3 million, because if we both have frigate level 5 trained and the associated fitting (equipment) skills trained to level 5, then we will both be just as effective in a frigate. The difference is that that 10 million skill point player can do other things beyond just flying a frigate.

    New players should feel that they are useful and have the ability to accomplish something. In Eve, if I'm flying that same frigate in a fleet, then I might not be able to dent a battleship as far as damage, but I can still fly a support role and do something. That's how it should be in an MMO.

  6. #26
    Deacon has hit the nail on the head. No one forces you to grind but you. There is no reason you need 100 masonry or 100 woodcrafting unless you personally see that as your goal.
    This is a sandbox, not Wow... There will be quests, there will be towns and civilization. We just have to build it.
    Also there are not any player levels, just skill levels. If you feel the need to be the best crafter, that is fine. But it is not necessary.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tybalt View Post
    Deacon has hit the nail on the head. No one forces you to grind but you. There is no reason you need 100 masonry or 100 woodcrafting unless you personally see that as your goal.
    This is a sandbox, not Wow... There will be quests, there will be towns and civilization. We just have to build it.
    Also there are not any player levels, just skill levels. If you feel the need to be the best crafter, that is fine. But it is not necessary.
    You are right its not WOW, its a sandbox game that is boring as heck.

    You are 100% right no one forces me to grind, just as no one forces me to play. If I dont grind then Im not playing, if I am playing Im grinding the way the game is set up now. The way it is now, I would not play this game due to how boring the grind is, and dont say Im not a grinder because I am. Ive played Lineage 2, Ive played Roma Victor many other games that would be considered a "grindy" kind of game and this one right now takes the cake for the worst.

    Name 1 skill that you dont "grind" to train up. I cant think of any. Lets go into WHY you would want a skill higher level.
    Lets see you have higher skills that allow you to preform better. You have skills that open up techs for you to do. Thats it. So of course EVERYONE is going to want to grind up something. NOTHING in this game is without grind. Fact is the only skill I see thats not a grind is skinning animals because everything else you can just sit there and grind. Not only can you but you do.

    Yes I understand Deacon thats how you play, but I will tell you what most tribes dont have everyone doing everything like you are doing most tribes have people spec'd to do things. Some people are masons some are hunters some are basket makers. So guess what is going to happen? They are going to try to level up basket making skills very fast so they can make the best baskets they can in the game.

    Things that are NOT a grind are when they reward you for doing something over than clicking 4 keys 10,000 times. Making you make reactions to what is going on, allowing your input to make a difference on how fast or good something is.

    Anytime you reward people for having higher skills you are forcing people to get higher skills. So saying that the game doesnt force you to do something is wrong. People dont want to play with 10 skill the whole time they are playing, just as people dont play WOW at 10th level the whole time. There is a reward for being higher level. Thus the game forces people to level.
    According to what you are saying WOW doesnt force you to level either. Heck in that manner WOW doesnt force you to wear items either. HAHA

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    You are right its not WOW, its a sandbox game that is boring as heck.

    You are 100% right no one forces me to grind, just as no one forces me to play. If I dont grind then Im not playing, if I am playing Im grinding the way the game is set up now. The way it is now, I would not play this game due to how boring the grind is, and dont say Im not a grinder because I am. Ive played Lineage 2, Ive played Roma Victor many other games that would be considered a "grindy" kind of game and this one right now takes the cake for the worst.
    I kind of agree with you, there is a lot of grind in the game and its boring. You posted about it several times. I'd like to ask you if you have any solution or idea how to make it more fun ? All of the games I've played had grind and it was boring since its repetitive...I so wish someone could find a good solution for this, really. When skilling and leveling up is actually fun....thats my dream game. Can you give an example what would you like to see in the game, how would you make crafting (tailoring, mason, whatever) more fun ? I can only think of minigames but they get old fast too.

  9. #29
    Right now this game is split into two halves IMO, The crafters and the PVP players. In both worlds you have the same thing, It has to be right or you are going to lose a lot of people. As we are talking crafting right now, I will stay on crafting for this. The way crafting works right now is boring as heck, As MrDDT said. It's very grindy, I also know that Xsyon is going to change things for crafting, I just have no idea what he has in mind yet. There is no way to take the grind out of crafting in a MMO. No mater what you add or change, At some point you will have seen and done it way to many times and it becomes a grind to do. So you have to find a way to make it fun, Or at the very least not so dull. And this is what will be the hard part, How to add fun to crafting without breaking the players immersion.

    I think by adding some simple add-ons to crafting could make it seem a lot more complex. Like adding a way for the player to decide what to do with the XP from crafting. Where you can make your toon go into innovation mode, And gets no XP to leveling his skill, But comes up with new recipes for what ever type of thing they are working on. Then when all you want to do is level, Then you can make it where you want get any new recipes, But make more XP for your skill. Or just keep it the way it is and get some recipes as you level up. But having that option will make people feel like they have more control over their character, And they will with this.
    Add a way to choose to become a master crafter, By clicking this add-on all other crafting skill decay afster, But your chosen craft gains XP a bit faster and skill decay is slower for that craft. This would be for people that only want to work with there one craft. But as always Option is king.
    There is more add-ons that would work, And I'm not saying my idea are great, I was just trying to come up with ways that would make you want to craft more.

    As to how to make crafting more fun.
    I would have to say what has been said a number of times before. Streamline it to a point. Have tools auto activate, Once resource(s) & mat(s) are clicked for crafting, They stay active till you stop crafting that recipe or close the crafting window. Having a way to be able to craft many would help. Now by craft many I do not mean hit craft once and you get ten out of it, What I mean by craft many is that after you are done crafting that one item it auto starts crafting again without you having to click craft again. I think that would help streamline it some.
    As to the mini games I have read a few of you talking about on this post and other's, What do you mean by mini game? Because when I read this I think of playing pacman to craft, Every time I eat a ghost I make a new item. OK I being silly there, But I do want to know what you mean by mini game, As I really don't know what it means.

    Now I am not saying go to this game and rip there crafting system off and add it here, But I did like the way EQ2 crafting was set up at the start of the game. I even liked the idea if I F'ed it up so bad I could die from crafting. But here was the basic setup. Once crafting you could have one of three issues pop up at any time, And it would randomly do pop up one of the issues till you was done crafting. When the issue poped up you only had a few seconds to solve. How you solved the issue was by picking one of six issue solving icons. Each type of craft had there own issues and solving icons. With the six solving icons you had three icons that would help with quality, And three for progress. So when any one issue icon poped up you had two solve icons to pick from to solve the issue with. One would add quality and the other would help in progress of what ever you was crafting. And if you picked the wrong solve icon for the issue icon, It had a chance to hurt you. When you are first learning crafting, Just the act of crafting could kill you. Later after your toons skill was higher you didn't have to deal with dieing as much.

    I didn't like Vanguards crafting as much, But it was a good crafting system, It was a lot like EQ2 crafting. But with Vg when an issue poped up, Crafting stopped till you solved it. Just with VG, You had to deal with only having so much power to use when crafting and if you ran out. Well unless you was almost done making the item, It would turn out to be a fail.

  10. #30
    Xsyon Citizen Gamefreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    You are right its not WOW, its a sandbox game that is boring as heck.

    You are 100% right no one forces me to grind, just as no one forces me to play. If I dont grind then Im not playing, if I am playing Im grinding the way the game is set up now. The way it is now, I would not play this game due to how boring the grind is, and dont say Im not a grinder because I am. Ive played Lineage 2, Ive played Roma Victor many other games that would be considered a "grindy" kind of game and this one right now takes the cake for the worst.
    This.

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