Global Currency or Item for Item Barter?

[Shrimps]

EVE also has a money system because of how the market works there, they list prices in ISK. There will be no auction or market system like that here, unless players start to make it.

I mean right now human bones are worth a TON, and could be used as money.

That's true but even then it usually turns out badly. My point was that you cannot have a monetary system in which money can be found infinetly off of creatures or out of scrap piles. The only way a monetary system works is when there is a finite amount that is regulated by some means. Every large government on earth has a team of economists working on regulating their currency.

A system without a regulator never ends well. in most theme park MMO's it's fine since you only spend a short time at each level bracket and are expected to make substantially more the higher you get and once you hit the level cap you're supposed to be swimming in money. But in a freeform MMO you can't have that happening without the market becoming diluted and money becoming worthless.

Either way the system reverts back to bartering such as in pre WW2 Germany where it took a suitcase full of bills to buy a loaf of bread. So they used the colorful bills for wallpaper since it was worth less than actual wallpaper and they bartered for what they needed.

When the item becomes more valuable than the currency, the item becomes currency.

[MrDDT]

When the item becomes more valuable than the currency, the item becomes currency.

Thats only true if everyone needs it always.

Like say mounts in WOW. Those are more valuable than money but many dont need them again after getting them. The only reason they can sell them is because others are willing to trade gold for them.

But I agree this system in this game is great. The players will judge what is worth it or not. I think its close to WURM (only wurm has money too) where people are not only trading goods, but services. I love that system.
Building a fence, or digging and moving dirt. System works well, because coin in that game is only used for a few people, most would rather have something else than coin.

[mrcalhou]

That's true but even then it usually turns out badly. My point was that you cannot have a monetary system in which money can be found infinetly off of creatures or out of scrap piles. The only way a monetary system works is when there is a finite amount that is regulated by some means. Every large government on earth has a team of economists working on regulating their currency.

You are right with this line of reasoning, but having an infinite source of money isn't always bad. Let's use Eve-Online as an example since it's one of the few games where in-game currency is actually worth something. The game as an infinite supply of money: NPC quests; however, Eve-Online also has many systems in place to leech money out of the game. There are taxes when using the market system, replacement clones for your skill points, and most noticebly, ships and some items being erased from the game when you die. So while a lot of money goes into the system, a lot of money comes out. Another thing that makes the increase in currency in the system not so much of a problem is because resources that can be bought (traded), and destroyed, are also being added to the system.

Let the people choose what they want to trade.
Money system is overrated and not needed in this type of game.
I can trade so and so what they want, and they trade me what they want. If I need it I will trade, if not I wont. We all value things differently in this type of game. Some tribes will need bricks, others will need scrap. Its all about working with what they got.

Haveing a money system does not take away your ability to trade face-to-face like you are mentioning. It can also be argued that you can use the forums to streamline the trading process, but I'd still prefer for all things to be able to be handled easily in game since not all people will participate in using the forums. A global standard just makes things less tedious. In the system I proposed it would be more financially efficient to do trades face-to-face since you can control what you trade with and what you trade for and you wouldn't have to worry about taxes being taken out.

[MrDDT]

Without systems to drain money, that system doesnt really work. You would need to buy land with money, or food, or potions or herbs or something.

I dont think using the forums is a good way to do trading. I believe there is going to be a totem system for posting what you want to trade, but I dont think it will use money to buy it. I think its just going to be a way to display what you have to offer and then you can leave them feedback in game on the totems.

Also there were to be quests and other things done with totems, which allow people to do a task for you, and you repay them FROM the totem. (Now this isnt in yet but it was the plan).

[mrcalhou]

Basically what he said.

Not all tribes are going to accept any form of standard currency. There aren't a large supply of NPC's standing around to take your money so there really isnt a reason to have it around. Every tribe will make decisions on what they value more, do they need 30 bricks right now or would they rather have 40$ to trade for something later.

Not to mention a money system just tuns out to be terrible in games like this. The only reason EVE turned out ok was because they hired an economist to stabalize it and find ways to regulate it.

If the standard currency was coded to be used as the means of trade through a certain building (or totem pole as Aliksteel's refrence mentions) then tribes wouldn't have much choice but to accept it unless they only want to trade face-to-face which is there business. The other thing is that not everyone will be in a tribe. There WILL be people that go it tribeless. So instead of reasoning based on tribes it would be more appropriate to reason things based on players. Since everyone (that plays) will be a player, but not everyone will be in a tribe. Not to mention haveing the global standard does nothing to hinder player's abilities to trade face-to-face, but it rather supplements it as another option.

Also, Aliksteel refrenced an answer from Jooky that there WILL be NPCs to trade with eventually. They just aren't in now. Like many other things.

Eve's system is designed to be self-regulating through the massive cycleing of resources. I think this is a really good idea personally. Also gives that nice feeling of risk vs. reward that is lacking in so many other MMOs. Having item loss like Eve has is also a really good way to promote the economy because it gives reasons to harvest and craft for everyone. Darkfall did something like this, but in that game resources and equipment merely switch hands, but they don't leave the game, which is a major oversight on their part because the game gets flooded with equipment.

[mrcalhou]

Without systems to drain money, that system doesnt really work.

I mentioned ways in the post above that a game, with a very succesful economy, uses to drain money out of the system.

You would need to buy land with money, or food, or potions or herbs or something.

I don't understand your reasoning for this part of the comment.

[MrDDT]

I mentioned ways in the post above that a game, with a very succesful economy, uses to drain money out of the system.


I don't understand your reasoning for this part of the comment.

Im not saying you cant, but in a true sand box econ, you wouldnt have anything like a money drain.

My comment about why you would need to have to buy things in game with money is because if you dont, money's value would be worth nothing. You can say that gold is the standard but if there is no use for it, no one will use it.
Things like healing herbs, or human bones, or maybe glass will be what would be the standard. Because people would need those and use those. Putting in a gold without a use or a need would do nothing. You would need a system for people to spend that on, thus creating a need.

[mrcalhou]

Im not saying you cant, but in a true sand box econ, you wouldnt have anything like a money drain.

Everyone has their own definition of what a sandbox is or what a "true" sandbox is. I also don't see why you wouldn't be able to consider a game a "true" sandbox if they do have money drains. I can see that having the money drain is a restriction on what players can us money for, but, as far as I'm concerned, a sandbox is a game that gives players many different options to go about doing things. I would argue that having restrictions is necessary to having a sandbox because it gives players more things to weigh. "Sure you can do it, but is it worth doing?" One player may be perfectly fine with the consequences, both good and bad, of their choice, while others may not be with those same choices.

My comment about why you would need to have to buy things in game with money is because if you dont, money's value would be worth nothing. You can say that gold is the standard but if there is no use for it, no one will use it.
Things like healing herbs, or human bones, or maybe glass will be what would be the standard. Because people would need those and use those. Putting in a gold without a use or a need would do nothing. You would need a system for people to spend that on, thus creating a need.

Ah, okay. I misread what you wrote. I thought you were talking about it being necessary to own land in order to have access to food, etcetera.

[MrDDT]

Everyone has their own definition of what a sandbox is or what a "true" sandbox is. I also don't see why you wouldn't be able to consider a game a "true" sandbox if they do have money drains. I can see that having the money drain is a restriction on what players can us money for, but, as far as I'm concerned, a sandbox is a game that gives players many different options to go about doing things. I would argue that having restrictions is necessary to having a sandbox because it gives players more things to weigh. "Sure you can do it, but is it worth doing?" One player may be perfectly fine with the consequences, both good and bad, of their choice, while others may not be with those same choices.

I didnt say sandbox game, I said sandbox econ. Which means the players make everything and choose what is of value or not. There will be no NPCs to sell your goods, and if there are, its set by the players. Without drains then money would have no value. Money must have a use (which means you use it to buy off NPCs, or buy things in game) or it will not be used.

Think of it like this, say I gave you a gold coin, and said "This is what money is" but you couldnt spend that money anywhere, you couldnt use it for anything. Why would you value you that coin? You would be like no, give me some food or a shirt, or a chicken.
Now if I gave you a gold coin and you could take that down the street and by a shirt, or chicken, or burger. Then it has value.
Thats how money started in the USA (and some other countries) they backed it with GOLD which is worth something to people. Overtime they were able to get off the gold standard (which is a mistake in my opinion but we wont go into that hehe). Because people are able to still buy things with paper money. But if ever that paper money couldnt buy things anymore, people would not use it.

[aliksteel]

When I said we need to look at the gold standard, I never said we needed it to be backed by gold. I was just using it as the frame to the idea to use ingame.

Alik Steel said:

You keep somthing very valuable that will backup your currency. I used tar or oil as we don't know what will be hard to come by and become a high value consumable. You use that high value consumable to give value to what ever currency you pick, Be it bottle caps, buttons, or what ever you wish to use. The bottle caps is just a stand in for the high value consumable item(s). Say my tribe sets the value at ten to one, So for every ten bottle caps you can buy one unit of oil. This gives value and meaning to my tribes money.

The only down side is that I have no idea how to introduce the currency / token into the game. As it is right now, No money will work. If all it takes is to pick it up off the ground. If Xsyon has a way to add money tokens into the game without flooding the world, Then a GC could work.

Oh and there will be a revenue drain from the tribes/game.
Xsyon said:
The idea is to have trade totems representing tribes beyond the mist as a means of introducing new things into the game.

And I would like to point out that every one is right!!! I'm being for real here. Look at it this way, There is the people that only want to trade this for that, And for them that works. Then there the ones that would like to pay you this amount for that, And for them thats works. I think we all are over thinking this thing. We could have both and would not hurt the othere. For the people and tribes that only trade, Then thats what everyone will have to do with them if they wish to do business with them. But for the ones that wish to use money(in what ever form it comes in) will be able to work out that with the other tribes that will want to use money as well.