07/07/2015 - Melee Combat Recommendations?

[Xsyon]

Hello everyone,

As most of you know I am working on a complete revision to creature AI, path finding and variables. These changes will affect combat and I can revise combat considerably, if needed, while undertaking this big 'creatures' task.

Recently I've started to briefly check out games that players have recommended or have mentioned as being similar to Xsyon.

The melee combat that I've seen so far is unimpressive to me. The basic systems I've seen so far are:
- Abilities assigned to keys (1,2,3,4) as in Warcraft, typically with a most effective 'rotation'.
- Simple mouse click to swing and attack.
- Mouse click to swing and attack with additional key press abilities.

Our current system was coded mostly by two programmers brought on to create a more involved melee combat system similar to Mount & Blade. I do realize there are issues with the system, especially due to latency. With the current revisions in progress I hope to eliminate or at least greatly reduce the problems. Still, a complex system of directional swings and charged attacks may just not be realistic for a game with players connecting to one server from locations around the world.

So, at this point, I would like to hear from you players.

Are there any MMOs (in particular, sandbox MMOs) that have melee combat that you really enjoy? What aspects of these systems do you most enjoy? What aspects of these systems would you change?

For now I'd like to look at melee combat only and focus on fun PvE combat, but keeping PvP in mind.

Make some recommendations and I will check them out. Thanks!

[Kyosa]

For me the melee combat in Mortal Online was the best i ever had in a mmo.

You have an energy bar based on your stats, able to block or swing you weapon, and the energy bars goes down.
No more energy -> stop fighting or run away and your energy bar fills up again.

With mouse click and a key you was able to swing left or right, or block left or right.
Of cause hit and block rate depends on the weapon you have in left and right hand.

[Tefached]

Look into a game called "Life is Feudal: Your Own", their combat system is... interesting to say the least and far to in depth to explain it with just words.

There are a great many aspects of the combat in LIF that are appealing, and even more of them relating to PvP. If Xsyon would implement their combat system anywhere close to that game it would be impressive.

I am glad you addressed the issue that latency was a problem with melee combat, but in the new system will elevation be factored in at all? I would highly recommend putting a check in place that uses the Y axis... for obvious reasons. I would recommend the use of hit boxes (if they are already there, then their bounding boxes need tweaked), or at least a modified version of a RayCast system which would be relatively "basic" but a good starting point for an overhaul.

Anyway, definitely check out that game if you already haven't.


~ Tefached

[Pwnuts]

The melee combat that I've seen so far is unimpressive to me.

We could maybe change some charackter animations, and for sure fix the ranges of weapon types. but the combat isnt a big deal atm. creatures should work. thats all.

would like to see a bunch of skills back in te game we miss since about 2-3years. like polearms and such. maybe adding shields to the equipment slots whcih yould work additional to parry and block, also allow a player to protect the durability of his armor.
i'd rather see you keep the xsyon style than copy any other game.

[wastelandstoic]

While I go through periods of trying out other MMO's nothing I have ran across has kept much interest for me for several years. I enjoy xsyon's combat system and have become accustomed to it. I would hope any changes would be minimal to the feel that we have now.

I have not played Mount & Blade or Mortal Online but I did try LiF-YO. I had the opposite reaction than that of Tefached. Combat and character animations in general felt very stiff and much more restrictive that Xsyon. To me it seemed like the character graphic was a cardboard cutout with no real reactions to what was transpiring with combat or other interactions. I did play early after release and not very long so my exposure was limited.

If it's decided to reduce some of the directional range of attacks and on the fly charging for a simpler system, perhaps a high, middle low attack/ defense system with an adjustable slider for charge could benefit Xsyon?

I recently revisited the first MMO I played back in 1999, Asheron's Call, and while its graphics are period I do like many of the skills/ combat system mechanics. Here is a skill that effects combat attacks based on the level of attack -Hi, Med or low:

http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Dirty_Fighting

And, while I certainly don't want a WOW type multi-button punch-out, rotation some static added bonuses at the goal post levels in each weapon skill would be welcomed. (Also, a balancing of the blade and club skills with picks and axes so all are viable. And, yes, I liked all the other weapon/ defense skills that we use to have. Would love to eventually see swords as well.)

[MrDDT]

I think the best system to go would be a World of Warcraft typical style. 1234.
Due to the lag issues I've seen I believe this would be the easiest to go about changing into. I would much rather focus on other coding things than worried about lag and other issues that come with Mount and Dlade, LIF, and Darkfall/Mortal style combat systems.

Give us special attacks, and powers with faith. I'm not asking to jump around shooting fireballs. Just saying make some special skills and attacks.

[Whorlok]

A good System is from the old "AGE OF CONAN" fighting System with Combos or from the actually MMO "Elder Scrolls Online"

[treyu]

I think you are trying to bring an utopic combat system for the resources you have and the base game you already have built. Games like Darkfall or Life is Feudal have great non target combat systems, but they spent many many years creating a very complex netcode and related combat system to make it professional and responsive. things that in my opinion after following and playing Xsyon from the beginning, you can't achieve. it is not an insult or a critic, I am being realistic and I think you should REALLY be realistic if you want your game to succeed. Combat is one of the most important things to get into a game, and I am not sure you realize how much. All my guild mates and friends that tried Xsyon didn't like it due to combat. Building is great, graphics are acceptable for the scope of the game, terraforming is great, crafting is nice, harvesting too, but combat.... combat is one of the main focus of an mmo that has PvE (and of course PvP), so it needs to be a very polished, fun and profesional. Which is not at the moment, has never been and if you continue trying to make a very complex, non targeting and groundbreaking combat system with your resources, you will fail again.

I am glad you are trying to change it finally, so use this change to create the best possible combat system for the scope of your game, the complexity of all its features and the resources you have. Games with lot of complex things like Xsyon (terraforming, free building, moving animals, etc) need to be realistic and don't look for a very complex combat system cause it is no possible to achieve if you don't have lot of guys working on it and lot of resources. A simplier combat system is NOTHING WRONG, in fact it will be much better because if it is polished, it works and it is beautiful to see, people will have FUN. No one plays Xsyon because it has a complex melee system or non target combat, they play it and know the game for other reasons. BUT they critize it because of its combat, lag desync in combat and lack of PvP incentives (due to combat too...).

With all that in mind, and even if I hate target combat, I am realistic and I know they are easier to implement, easier to fix lag desync and make it a polished system, and given all the great features Xsyon has, a target combat won't do harm, in fact it could do wonders as you can add abilities, magic, combos, even combat classes or specializations much easier, as all it matters is creating abilities and its effects. In a non target combat, and more witha a complex melee system where you aim your arms with mouse, it is crazy to implement all this with an indie game like yours. So I would choose a target system like Wow, FF14, etc and build it more complex from there later on. beleive me, you will greatly benefit for that change, in PvE and PvP.

But if you really don't want a target system, then go with a soft-target system like Elder Scrolls Online, The Secret World (when enabling "aim" mode), NeverWinter Online, Dungens and Dragons Online, The Repopulation, Tabula Rasa... it is a great compromise between both systems. You are actually targetting, but the system makes you feel like you are aiming as you always need to put the aim reticule into the mob/player to "maintain" the target so hits/abilities are registered. This system (as well as a pure targetting system) is MUCH less heavy network wise, which will free up resources for the rest of the system in the code.

Yous actual combat system is unpolished, unprofessional, plays badly and it is not fun. It was a great idea to try, but failed due to bad implementation because a combat like that needs MUCH MORE resources and people working on it, why do you think games like Darkall, Mortal Online, Elder Scrolls, Mount and Blade had to make compromises in other features to bring that type of combat and took them years of work with lot of people just working on combat and tons of tests?

Don't listen to people wanting a very complex system like mount and blade, mortal online or darkfall, they are very complex for your game...... think just in creating a POLISHED, FUN and with GOOD FEELING combat both in PvE and PvP

Oh, and there should be ZERO excuses to have desync and lag after so much time. An MMO can't have it, more if you have a non instanced world. It is like openning a food shop and giving excuses to your customers because your food is in bad condition because you don't have freeze conditioning, which should be something intrinsic to your bussiness. Everytime I have read your posts saying desync is not a problem, or some players have it others dont, or it is an issue related to people playing from different parts of the world, I just think this game should not even exist. No players should have desync in combat, does not matter the excuse you want to take. Professional and released mmos DON'T have desync or they don't launch till its fixed. Stop working on building parts, terraforming, crafting etc and make a combat system with no desync, no lag, that works for everyone THE SAME and if you can't, change things and take compromises till you achieve it.

[MrDDT]

Well said Treyu.

[Xsyon]

Due to the lag issues I've seen I believe this would be the easiest to go about changing into. I would much rather focus on other coding things than worried about lag and other issues that come with Mount and Dlade, LIF, and Darkfall/Mortal style combat systems.

Have you experienced lag and desynch issues with those other games? If not, they are worth checking out to me. More info on this would be appreciated.

One reason I've started checking out other games is to see how they resolve desynch. As explained in the creature desynch thread, if a command like a jump or swing takes 500 ms to travel from one player to the server to another player (even ignoring processing time), there is a 500 ms visual delay between players.

There are definitely ways to work around this delay. For example, some games will send a command from a client to the server, the server then sends it back to all nearby players. This system does a much better job of synchronizing actions between players, but can feel sluggish for the client initiating an action. I believe that Darkfall does something like this with their 'momentum' system as it felt to me that actions were delayed based on my ping (the delay was more noticeable to me when connecting to a EU server).