AR leader explaining why he and most quit Xsyon

[NorCalGooey]

Just thought I would share this message with you guys. I found it very relevant to what people are talking about lately on the forums. One simple thing, broken promises and changes to the original plan.

Long time Xsyon beta player and 3 year guild leader of Audacian Republic, KINSLAYER, explaining to me why he and most of the long time AR members quit Xsyon (we currently don't play any game completely actively as a tribe, but still have our forums setup..I guess we are all just waiting for that next big game, or Xsyon to patch something interesting...but the problem is they have SO MUCH to patch.)

As my personal commentary, this couldn't be anymore accurate. So I am going to make it size 3.

FOREWARNING:, if you like Xsyon and want to keep playing it, you might not want to read this...as I almost want to quit now.


Post on our forum from Kinslayer responding to me
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I love world building content if its done right. I just think Xsyon has missed the mark slightly. It doesnt need huge improvements, but it does need a lot of refinement.

But as you say, player interaction is where the game breaks down, not just in PvP, but also in things like recipes and resources. We were always told, back in beta, that recipes will be unique to individuals, that no one tribe will be able to be self sufficient, much less a single person. Unfortunately the game hasnt turned out like that.

As I've said many times in the past couple of months, I can no longer promote a game Im not excited about personally. If Xsyon can make some simple improvements and refinements, hopefully my excitement for the game will return, and Im not just talking combat. It goes deeper than that.

But to answer your question about whats different now, well, not much, and thats the problem. Also, some simple things we were told during beta have gone in the opposite direction, like the lack of unique recipes among different players. I have toolcrafting at level 20 or so I think it is, and I can make any tool I need. So not only am I self sufficient for tools, so is the tribe Im in. If I spent the time to train another 6 skills to 30 or 50, in some cases 80, I could be self sufficient in all skills. Thats far from a good thing. We were told 8-12mths ago that it wouldnt be like that.

Also, as I said before, we were told Prelude would only last for 6-12mths, and during that time we would see heaps of cool stuff like agriculture and religion implemented, not to mention more lore. Nothing there yet. We were originally told also that safe zones will only last for 6-9mths during Prelude before they would be removed. Then in comes a wave of carebears, and we are apparently stuck with them, again, not a good thing. We proved in the first 3 weeks of release that safe zones are a bad idea and will be exploited.

So now I believe they are implementing a new zone with true open PvP and rare resources? How, as a tribe, are we to benefit from that without abandoning our totem? Are expansion totems being introduced along with that? If not, by the time they are implemented, it will be too late. Once again, this is a thing that hasnt been thought through properly by the devs, and that remains one of the biggest problems with the development of Xsyon, the lack of thinking things through sufficiently before either diving into something, or announcing something on the forum.

These may all seem petty or minor things, but when all lumped together on top of one another, it becomes a lot of disappointment. Hell, feel free to copy and paste this stuff to the Xsyon forum if you want, perhaps Jooky should read this kind of feedback.

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IMO, this is basically a summary of all the back and forth on the multiple threads where people argue about the most important issues.

[Rudder]

Can I have your stuff?

[NorCalGooey]

You serious? That's what you bring to the thread? I don't have a great deal of personal items and I'm not going to give away all of the tribes items. There's always the possiblity for a miracle. I'm not quitting anyways. I said I almost want to quit (i meant this moment). I'm giving it until the end of August.

[Aiden]

I have 10-15 friends that are looking for a game to make their new home as a tribe. I play completely solo right now because I tell them on a daily basis that this game is a long, long, long way from being finished...and the post by Kinslayer highlights one of the major reasons I believe that...

There are TONS of little things that could have been done slightly different which would have caused this game to be a THRIVING community-interaction based world...instead of a population: 10 wasteland where everyone (I AM A HOMESTEADER AND CAN MAKE EVERYTHING I NEED) is self-sufficient...how "realistic" is that?

[NorCalGooey]

It's truly sad isn't it Aiden. Even in 2011 in real life, we aren't self sufficient. We are very reliant on society (most people anyways) and trade. You would think with exponentially less resources in the world people would have to trade even more (no overabundance worldwide, perhaps have even a shortage of most resources in one specific area, but an overabundance of a few resources)..and they would. Problem is Xsyon isn't like that at ALL like you pointed out.

Hell, even in 2011 we still trade for REGIONAL resources. Some stuff just grows better in certain areas of the world, and some stuff can ONLY grow in certain areas of the world. Or some things can only be naturally found in certain areas of the world.

THRIVING community-interaction based world... has a nice ring to it.

Added after 5 minutes:

It's also sad how the devs can't see that safe zones that are instant and free to make, anytime (within a 6 hour window, dropping the totem), anywhere in the world, can't work. There is too much exploitation...not to mention...boring....

The reason I am still playing the game is because in the end I KNOW as FACT that carebear ideas will be tossed out or game dies (one of two options). This game CANNOT survive any other way. It was not designed to be a theme park crafting simulator. The DEVS know it too, they are just waiting to implement other major features and polish the game BEFORE they bring back a massive wave of players via safe zone removal AND advertising. They only get ONE chance at that and they know that as well. It's just sad that it SEEMS it's going to take a while before the game is in a state where they can remove safe zones, advertise, and populate the game.

edit: of course if Jordi is a millionaire and doesn't need the money, the game can survive anyway he chooses. I didn't mean the game wouldn't survive budget wise though (although it wouldn't unless he's rich), I meant population and reputation wise.

[Book]

I can't say I agree, nor can I say I disagree, with everything he's saying.

However, if I were to play devil's advocate for a minute, I might mention some of the following:

1) Kinslayer was heard and listened to when it came to staggered downtimes. So there is some direct and tangible evidence that he isn't ignored or unheard in his needs / wants. A sensible and feasible compromise was implemented by the devs. Perhaps they're still devising similar, workable compromises on some of the other issues.

2) If prelude is to be 6 to 12 months, then we're looking at September 15, 2011, to March 15, 2012. Perhaps his past year of experience leads him to believe things like agriculture or religion won't actually be added in that time. Difficult to speak to that because I don't have that year of experience with this company, nor does the company have the same set of employees minus a few. I believe most developers are fairly recent, which is one reason Xsyon has given for needing to catch up on things. Still, the understood prelude, at it's longest, is nowhere near over. One shall see.

3) Far as the safe zones, I may have your position confused with someone else's... apologies if that's the case. I thought you felt capital totems should not be destructible because people put so much time into them? If so, that's not far from what those you would consider carebears have come to agree with. Myself as an example, I used to believe safe zones would be adequate, but understand a number aren't all that happy with them. So, a capital totem like the one I think you've mentioned and a gate to keep me safe from too much babysitting duty would work. I know of other so-called carebears that have said the very same thing.

4) I don't think I remember Jordi himself ever saying he was planning different pvp rules for different zones? Might have missed it. I know that's something players have talked about, and in an environment where players are listened to a lot... it does make one wonder if what is said on forums will eventually become the reality. My thought on that is we will see viable attempts at compromise from the devs... where feasible and workable. Some on the extreme carebear thoughts of things won't be happy with it. Some on the extreme side of whatever you want to call the opposite of a carebear won't be happy with it... but hopefully a healthy number of middle-roaders will be having a great old time and inviting all of their friends.

/ end devil's advocate.

I made 100 baskets today. I learned something new to me about gathering grass and being able to consistently get "high quality" grass. I got my basketry skill up to 50 which means when I get back home after this trade I'll be able to make better grass armor, or maybe even better skirts . I'm going through the grind I have to to raise my skill, but I have a trade with MrDDT that means I'm very happy with what I will get for that grind rather than just grinding for the sake of it.

Taking a break helped me get back into the game a bit. Hopefully that will be the case for many more others as well.

[NorCalGooey]

I can't say I agree, nor can I say I disagree, with everything he's saying.

However, if I were to play devil's advocate for a minute, I might mention some of the following:

1) Kinslayer was heard and listened to when it came to staggered downtimes. So there is some direct and tangible evidence that he isn't ignored or unheard in his needs / wants. A sensible and feasible compromise was implemented by the devs. Perhaps they're still devising similar, workable compromises on some of the other issues.

2) If prelude is to be 6 to 12 months, then we're looking at September 15, 2011, to March 15, 2012. Perhaps his past year of experience leads him to believe things like agriculture or religion won't actually be added in that time. Difficult to speak to that because I don't have that year of experience with this company, nor does the company have the same set of employees minus a few. I believe most developers are fairly recent, which is one reason Xsyon has given for needing to catch up on things. Still, the understood prelude, at it's longest, is nowhere near over. One shall see.

3) Far as the safe zones, I may have your position confused with someone else's... apologies if that's the case. I thought you felt capital totems should not be destructible because people put so much time into them? If so, that's not far from what those you would consider carebears have come to agree with. Myself as an example, I used to believe safe zones would be adequate, but understand a number aren't all that happy with them. So, a capital totem like the one I think you've mentioned and a gate to keep me safe from too much babysitting duty would work. I know of other so-called carebears that have said the very same thing.

4) I don't think I remember Jordi himself ever saying he was planning different pvp rules for different zones? Might have missed it. I know that's something players have talked about, and in an environment where players are listened to a lot... it does make one wonder if what is said on forums will eventually become the reality. My thought on that is we will see viable attempts at compromise from the devs... where feasible and workable. Some on the extreme carebear thoughts of things won't be happy with it. Some on the extreme side of whatever you want to call the opposite of a carebear won't be happy with it... but hopefully a healthy number of middle-roaders will be having a great old time and inviting all of their friends.

/ end devil's advocate.

I made 100 baskets today. I learned something new to me about gathering grass and being able to consistently get "high quality" grass. I got my basketry skill up to 50 which means when I get back home after this trade I'll be able to make better grass armor, or maybe even better skirts . I'm going through the grind I have to to raise my skill, but I have a trade with MrDDT that means I'm very happy with what I will get for that grind rather than just grinding for the sake of it.

Taking a break helped me get back into the game a bit. Hopefully that will be the case for many more others as well.

I wouldn't consider you a carebear in the slightest if your safe zone was walls you worked for to build to provide your safe zone. Also wouldn't call you a carebear in the slightest for wanting no capital totem capture. That's fine because Jordi never said anything about capital totem capture, just safe zone removal. Plus, it's just a downright bad idea to forceably remove the last remaining place someone has to call home (the capital totem area). Mutual agreement capital totem capture would work, but my goodness, that would be some high stakes warfare. I for one would NEVER engage in it.

Carebears (relating to safe zones) are those who want to be able to place a safe zone anywhere, at anytime, instantly, for free.

edit: I learned something new today too. Higher foraging skill (maybe scav too?) = faster resource gathering.

I love how I constantly am learning stuff about this game, even though I am one of the most active in the game. That is a very large positive for me, although it must be tough to be a newbie and not know anything. That's why I'm making a guide with the help of all the Xsyon players, because newbies hardly stand a chance at rolling the character they want to roll...and understanding how the game works before they quit.

[Aiden]

Yeah NorCal...my wife and I talked about this some when we were considering getting two accounts...

I can start with basketry and as long as I don't mind grinding a lot, I can make ANYTHING....all by myself. It may not be quite as high quality as the person next to me, but really...that's not going to matter much.

If I can craft what I need, why in the world would I travel halfway across the map to get something with +1....

Recipes need to be limited...resources need to be regional...and there needs to be a significant skill-cap in place. Xsyon will NEVER feel like a world if a tribe (or homesteader) never NEEDS or WANTS for anything outside of their four walls...

[Shrimps]

I wouldn't consider you a carebear in the slightest if your safe zone was walls you worked for to build to provide your safe zone. Also wouldn't call you a carebear in the slightest for wanting no capital totem capture. That's fine because Jordi never said anything about capital totem capture, just safe zone removal. Plus, it's just a downright bad idea to forceably remove the last remaining place someone has to call home (the capital totem area). Mutual agreement capital totem capture would work, but my goodness, that would be some high stakes warfare. I for one would NEVER engage in it.

Carebears (relating to safe zones) are those who want to be able to place a safe zone anywhere, at anytime, instantly, for free.

edit: I learned something new today too. Higher foraging skill (maybe scav too?) = faster resource gathering.

I love how I constantly am learning stuff about this game, even though I am one of the most active in the game. That is a very large positive for me, although it must be tough to be a newbie and not know anything. That's why I'm making a guide with the help of all the Xsyon players, because newbies hardly stand a chance at rolling the character they want to roll...and understanding how the game works before they quit.

I feel like I need to point something out that this post made me realize. One of the big things about this game is that there are no NPC's or NPC cities and that the world is shaped by the players.

Well if there is no "Capital" totem capture then doesn't that mean the city is essentially permanent and immovable? And in turn doesn't that basically make it an NPC city? So if the big argument is that you shouldn't lose your main city because you'd have nowhere to go, then why not just have permanent NPC cities?

What's the difference besides who gets to design it?

Anyways sorry for going off topic, I don't agree with Kinslayer all the time but he's more or less spot on. But then again this has been said quite a few places already.

[mmogaddict]

Appollo (or anyone else from AR) feel free to pop by www.theoldergamers.com - I'm mostly playing World of Tanks while waiting for the next decent game to give a try to.

Send me a PM there.

Take care, Xsyon really is a wasteland.